Vanderzyden

Starboy,

Again, you refuse to answer. Let's narrow the focus for the moment.

My question:

What has led you to conclude that nothing has purpose?

Your response:

It seems that you are hesistant to answer the question. Perhaps you won't mind making an attempt. I am very interested in your answer.

In your reply, you do provide an amazing observation that is incidental to our discussion:

Yes, it's fascinating that our planet is especially unique, and is placed in a most improbable location in a seemingly remote part of the universe. Of all the desolation that is apparent in the observable universe, here is Earth. Incredibly complex, and particularly suited for life. Wow!

Thanks for the reminder of these important facts, which provide support for the ID position!

Oh, I'm a beginning amateur astronomer, myself. What kind of scopes do you own? Mine is an Orion 102mm catadioptric.

Vanderzyden

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]</p>

Blinn

Mods, isn't it about time for this thread to go over to Philosophy?

Starboy

Van, I am not trying to be difficult, nor am I trying to avoid answering your questions. I am having a hard time trying to figure out what you are trying to get at. If you could state it plainly and bluntly I think it would be a great help in getting to the bottom of this.

As to the purpose of the universe, I do not know what it is. I do not claim to know nor am I trying to convince anyone that I do know. One thing has become clear to me, there are the facts and then there is the interpretation of the facts. Science concerns itself with getting the facts, but unfortunately in our society, there are no institutions trying to interpret them. Mostly what I see is denial.

You observe a universe in which the earth is almost a non-existent part and see it as design. I look at the same universe and to me it looks more like a mistake or random chance. But it doesn’t matter, because I am willing to admit that I am a limited creature with limited knowledge. If there isn’t enough information to answer the question, well it will just have to go unanswered until there is enough information. That may be soon, that may be never. It doesn’t bother me that I don’t have the answer because the journey is much more interesting then the destination.

You mentioned that you had the plans for the universe. Why are you holding out on the entire world? Where are they?

How long have you been gazing at the stars? I have been an amateur astronomer since I was a young child. I am the observing chair of the Tallahassee Astronomical Society – <a href="http://stargazers.org" target="_blank">www.stargazers.org.</a> The club has a C-14 on a Parallax GEM housed in an Ash 10’ dome; I have a CG9.25 and an NGT-18.

Starboy

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

scigirl

Vanderzyden,

Grr, well I wasn't going to reply to you anymore unless you had actually presented some examples we can discuss, but then you went and attacked me so I must defend myself!

No I have a problem with only thanking God, and not the people that actually DID the work.
Many of us are all atheists/agnostics here. This is INTERNET INFIDELS. Did you just now realize this?? Click on people's profiles to find out their beliefs.

What does this have to do with my frustration that the 700 club does not even thank ANY of the medical professionals - doctors, nurses, EMTs, the janitors who keep the hospital clean?

I don't think I'm better than anyone - I just think that the 700 Club is doing the society a dis-service by thanking an invisible being and then forgetting to thank the visible good people that do make tangible, measurable differences in people's lives. That's what I was getting at - and I sort of thought it related to the "non-natural knowledge" discussion but perhaps I was wrong!

I am truly sorry you had a bad experience with an egotistical doctor. I hope I never do this! As a physician, I know that religion will play a part of my patient's lives, and I don't have a problem with that. I'm sure that most patients are very appreciative and thankful of people who are willing to just listen, and care about them.

I don't wish to discuss this issue further (sorry I brought it up here) in this thread. If you want, I could discuss this issue elsewhere - just provide me a link.

What outrageous remarks? And yes I am incredibly frustrated with you, and your claims that are simply not true. And your evasions of my questions. And your continual whining, without any suggestions on HOW we scientists can remedy this naturalistic assumption problem. And your arrogant demeanor - you think you know what we believe and feel about other humans! Already you have called me (indirectly) an arrogant doctor who doesn't have any compassion for my patients or respect for my staff, and stated to me that I view humans as nothing but a ball of cells (or whatever it was -but it was mean AND wrong!)

Also, you clearly don't understand the scientific process (this is not meant to be a criticism, it's just the facts), yet you seem to think you can tell what science is good and what science is bad.

If I am an arrogant person for pointing that out to you, so be it. But it's the truth - you can't just reject a bunch of studies that draw conclusions you don't like and then pretend that you are A-OK with all the other science.

Read my little scenario again with you and the forensic scientist. That is exactly what you are doing - whether you like it or not.

Ahh, so you chose the "shut up" rather than the "put up." So I take it this means you have no examples of how I as a scientist can use your religion in a practical way in the lab? That's what I thought.

scigirl

Vanderzyden

Scigirl,

OK, so you do want to continue.

That isn't what I said. Please read what I am writing, not what you think you have come to know of me. Ah, that would be many doctors. As a professional, my wife has had many experiences with "i am god" doctors. It is sickening. Your comparison was very remiscent of such warped thinking. For some reason, you are concerned about recognition for physicians. What about the thanks that should come from the physicians toward their teachers, the hospital, and all of the others who support them. That is a rare phenomena indeed!

I realize that what I'm about to say is divergent, but it is probably a good investment.

Just stop, please. You keep claiming these "facts", and yet you know precious little about me. I understand science. My training is substantially scientific. The "science" behind most of the issues I have seen you raise is either nebulous, indeterminate, or poor. As I have said, I anticipate corroborating studies in areas such as chromosome fusion and comparitive genetic functionality.

It would appear that you think you have the world in your hand, and that you have this innate ability to make accurate assessments from brief encounters. That makes for great enthusiasm, but it doesn't mean that you have all the answers.

There are scores of topics on my "Infidels wish list". I have asked many people these questions on my mind--at conferences, in online forums, and with acquaintances who I consider brilliant. Of those who take the naturalist position, they do not have answers. I will tell you, you haven't a clue about my potential, despite your apparent confidence.

Remember these last statements as you continue to see me post here.

Vanderzyden

Starboy

Vander, opinionated I can take, but this arrogance is too much. Scigirl has got to be one of the nicest people on this forum. Shame on you. You are trying her patience as you try mine.

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

Doubting Didymus

Vander, remember what I said about your own arrogant, inflammatory posts? This is a perfect example. How do you expect anyone to anwser this politely? Your propensity to be incredibly frustrating, coupled with your policy of ignoring anyone who is impolite to you, is a dubious pairing.

If you want to talk like this, thats fine, I will not restrict how you wish to phrase your posts, but please dont expect us to react with total calm.

Vanderzyden

Starboy, DD:

Go for it, guys. I am willing to listen. I don't find inconsistency between the requests I've made of you and the line I'm presently taking with scigirl. But I could be wrong, so please show me.

However, before you do, review scigirl's recent attack on me. She may be nice to you, but something is different lately with me. Perhaps I rub her the wrong way with my use of "Darwinist", for example.

Also, please distinguish inflammatory from disagreeable. What is specifically inflammatory to either of you?

There is a difference between tough/demanding and disrespect. I want to be cordial, but I will keep my shield at hand.

Vanderzyden

Starboy

Vander, it is your arrogance that I find offensive. I have only known Scigirl for a few months, but in those months she has impressed me with her patience and her desire to engage in honest and informative exchanges. Perhaps you have misjudged her. An apology would hurt no one.

Starboy

Starboy

Vander, you have a chance to show how magnanimous you can be, don't blow it.