yelyos

What marks the difference between an ordinate desire and an inordinate desire?

What is it that makes the desire that homosexuals have for self-gratification inordinate while the desire that heterosexuals have for self-gratification is perfectly well and good?

You're arguing in circles. You're saying that homosexuality is evil because of evil self-gratification urges, and not taking care to explain what makes a homosexual urge any different in a moral sense from any other such urge.

yguy

Good question. I don't know that I can do it justice, but here goes nothing: let's say you find some girl hot. If your desire for her is legitimate, you'll treat her with respect, and not try to manipulate or coerce her into sex. If not, you will; or if you lack the "courage" to actually try to seduce her, you'll fantasize about her obsessively.

For the second and last time, I never said that heterosexual desire was necessarily good. There are plenty of heterosexual perverts, including pedophiles.

For that matter, what makes a pedophilic urge different in a moral sense, remembering that urges by themselves don't violate children's rights? Would you argue that such urges are morally equivalent to normal heterosexual urges?

everlastingtongue

yguy,

I don't get it.

I asked:
your reply:
Though previously you have said:
and when I asked:
you replied:
So,

Do homosexuals inordinately desire self-gratification or not?

and

Why is the heterosexual desire for self-gratification not inordinate?

yelyos

The desire in and of itself does not cause harm and thus is either moral or value neutral. What you're discussing are actions that spring from desires, and so it's a different topic. What is it about homosexual actions that is morally reprehensive?

As long as the desire is not acted on it is morally neutral in my opinion, or positive if the person with the urge derives pleasure from having such an urge.

I don't believe that urges are immoral; I believe that actions can have negative moral consequences attached, but not urges in and of themselves. On this point I agree. I think that it would be far more logical to speak about homosexual actions, rather than urges.

(P.S: At the time of writing there are 666 threads in MF&P)

Alonzo Fyfe

You are confusing what will fulfill a desire, and what a person believes will fulfill a desire. The proposition that whatever fulfills a desire is good, and whatever does not is false, concerns the actual fulfillment of a desire, not the (possibly mistaken) beliefs that a person will have.

The individual who attempts suicide and later recognizes it to be a mistake is simply that - - a person who recognizes that a previous judgment about what will best fulfill his desires was mistaken.


Well, people desire a great many things other than happiness, and there is no reason to hold that the only the happiness matters, and all of the other things people want do not.

The first thing to notice that this is a type of question that focuses on psychological theory. It cannot be settled by sitting at a computer and imaging how people behave -- any more than theories in the field of physics can be answered by sitting at a computer and imagining how things move.

BDI (belief-desire-intention) theory -- the theory upon which these claims are based -- is the most widely accepted theory in psychology, and it holds that a desire for happiness is only one of a virtually infinite number of desires. It is an important one, but it is not alone. And there is no reason that one can give for holding this one desire to be the sole important desire and to disregard all others.

Note: The two most significant problems with happiness theory are:

(1) Evolution. It is easier and more likely that brains will be programmed with the routine "Lion -> Run!" than "Lion -> Unhappiness -> Run!". It is more reasonable to expect a number of these simpler programs still running in the human brain, than the more complex programs.

(2) Choice. People, given choices where one would clearly increase happiness (both overall happiness and individual happiness for the agent making the choice), people will -- under certain circumstances -- routinely pick an option not containing greater happiness. BDI theory (which holds that people pick the option that makes the propositions describing the object of their desires true) better predicts the choices that people will make than Happiness theory (that people pick that option which contains the most overall or personal happiness). One of the measures of a good theory is that it better predicts and explains a set of relevant observations.



What is the difference between nitro-glycerine and water. If the nitro-glycerine never gets used, then there is no difference. right?

Well, even if the nitro-glycerine never gets used, it remains dangerous. One cannot say that the unused nitro-glycerine is no more dangerous than water. The potential to do damage remains.

fundamental spawn

I have never been able to get down turnip greens. Turnip greens have repelled me from Day 1, they are grotesque to me, and I can't identify with people who love 'em. I am simply not a Turnip Greens person, and never will be.

I don't consider them immoral, however.

abe smith

I'm not persuaded that you, yguy, are sufficiently-experienced to generalize about suicide/incompleted-suicidists..... Indeed, it's my opinion that, based on the tone of your posts at this thread & otherwhere, your declarations -of-opinion perhaps lack foundation(s) iin your own personal experience. Hence my lack of confidence in those. Not certain what sort of evidence you cd offer of your bona fides....
(Unfortunately this of-mine appears to be an ad hominem cavil.)

yguy

Yes.

As I've said a number of times now, it may be. I would say it always is outside of marriage - though even IN marriage it can be as well.

yguy

Perhaps homosexuality can be similarly labeled as a desire rooted in self-deception. The fact that some homosexuals are so evangelistic and demanding of acceptance lends credence to the idea that they don't feel comfortable about it within themselves.

Does this relate to what I said somehow?

Dr Rick

Perhaps Christianity can be similarly labeled as a desire rooted in self-deception. The fact that some Christians are so evangelistic and demanding of acceptance lends credence to the idea that they don't feel comfortable about it within themselves.