River

Old Testament Laws are valid. In fact the New Testament does not introduce Laws. Jesus Christ forbade many things (i.e eating of swine) and yet Christians due to their strict allegience to an anti-christ known as Paul have dropped these Laws. Paul made Christianity a " Faith " based religion and allowed the worship of the most humble Servant of G-d, the Prophet Jesus Christ ( Isa Masih in arabic) (pbuh). Jesus Christ and James taught that Religion is both " Faith AND Works based".

"And we sent ‘Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam following in their footsteps, confirming the Torah that came before him. We gave him the Injil containing guidance and light, confirming the Torah that came before it, and as guidance and admonition for those who have fear." [ Noble Quran Surat al-Ma’idah: 46]

Magus55

Paul is not an anti-Christ - and Jesus taught salvation by faith not by works. Works come as a result of Faith, not the other way around. Only Islam believes salvation is achieved by works. Islam seems to think we can earn God's grace - which is impossible.


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Calzaer

The only people who DON'T believe in works is the splintered sect that is protestantism. Every other permutation of the abrahamic religion believes in works, rather than "Hey, do anything you want, you'll go to heaven no matter what as long as you've kissed enough ass."

EstherRose

Being saved by faith alone does not mean we can do anything we want to no matter how wrong. A Christian’s desires change. We want to follow our Lord and be as good as we can be, not for a works based salvation, but out of love and reverence for our Lord.

2 Corinthians 7
1Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Ephesians 4
17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
20You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Calzaer

Esther: But it doesn't matter. If a Christian who accepted Christ doesn't change, is he going to hell? To change onesself is a series of WORKS. To say that Christ himself changes people who accept him is circular; if you need to exhibit works to get into heaven, no matter who is causing you to do them, works are required to get into heaven.

EstherRose

We don’t need to exhibit works to get into heaven. The works are a fruit of the Holy Spirit working within us. This comes from God. All true believers change. The changes may be slow and take years, but once a person has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, the changes do eventually occur and they may be subtle at first.

Some people seem to think Christians have to do works after their salvation. There is a difference between ‘have to’ and ‘want to’. I want to live a moral life to please God, because I recognize the sin in my life, not because I won’t go to heaven if I don’t. Jesus is all I need for salvation. The Bible makes that quite plain. It is simply a matter of cause and effect. Jesus/God/Holy Spirit are the cause, changed lives are the effect.

When the Bible talks about Christians who don’t change, it usually refers to those who claim to be Christians but don’t show the fruits of the Holy Spirit. They probably have not truly accepted Jesus as their Lord.

MortalWombat

If it's so plain, why are there verses that indicate otherwise? Even Jesus himself on a few occasions, when asked specifically what needs to be done to obtain eternal life, answers with "obey the commandments and sell your possessions" or "love your Lord God with all your heart and love you neighbor as yourself."All religions have people in them that claim their lives were changed for the better. Does that mean they are all equally valid?

Calzaer

Then it doesn't matter who you rape, kill, mutilate, or torture, as long as you believe in Jesus.

Saying a TRUE believer wouldn't do any of those things is an irrelevant No True Scotsman fallacy. If you define "True Believer" as someone who acts in a certain way, you're defining it on the basis of works rather than faith.

NOGO

If Jesus taught salvation by faith then why do you quote somebody else.

I don't believe this is the place for this thread.

EstherRose

Jesus Himself said:

Mark 16
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

If you provide the verses in question, I will be happy to respond to your criticism of them. The verse you alluded to in your post, I will address after dinner.