Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spurly · 04-04-2003, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna
Well, spurly, you claim these people are non-Christians. They're also adults. This tells me they're probably pretty rational creatures. Thus, the only way to convert and keep them will be to shut them off from rationality, both their inner rationality and interference from others. You, on the other hand, never were rational about these things to begin with, so there's nothing there to cure you of. You can be a Christian without ignoring rationality, because you're impervious to it to begin with.

-B

Contrary to popular opinion, I am a very rational and logical person.

Kevin

spurly · 04-04-2003, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
Kevin, You say "struggle with" the text when there are contradictions, but don't you, in all truthfulness, ultimately encourage them to try and makes "sense" of the contradiction in favor of Christianity even if they have to A) interpolate (make up hypothetical scenarious NOT mentioned in the Bible) B) say "I don't know, but I believe anyway"?

What EXACTLY is the point of "struggling" with the contradictory text if they are never allowed to come to an intellectually honest conclusion that the contradiction is not reconcilable from scripture as it is written without speculating, assuming and spinning "theories" of what it "could" have meant?

You are encouraging - actually, REQUIRING - that they embrace the presupposition that the Bible is Truth (TM). Presuppositionalism is the antithesis of critical examination.

You yourself have admitted in a recent thread that what your conviction on a certain point (everyone sinning) ultimately comes down to personal revelation. What if one of your flock has an equally strong and compelling revelation from God that conflicts with yours? How can you claim that yours is right and his or hers is wrong without engaging in the ultimate form of narcissism - unshakable belief that YOU cannot possibly be deluded, only everyone else?

When I come to a different conclusion than other people, I allow for liberty to reign in our relationship. Because Christians are humans, they are not going to all agree on every aspect of doctrine. What do we do when there are differences? Do we discount the others and doom them for hell? NO. NO. NO.

We follow an admonition I have been taught since I was knee high to a grasshopper. Simply stated it is this: "In essentials (of faith) unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things love." None of us will ever be 100% right on this side of eternity. I am probably wrong in some of the theology that I hold. However, that does not mean that I stop studying, researching, praying, and living for God.

Kevin

Bree · 04-04-2003, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
None of us will ever be 100% right on this side of eternity. I am probably wrong in some of the theology that I hold. However, that does not mean that I stop studying, researching, praying, and living for God.

What happens if that .2% that you're wrong about (i.e. the Old Testament is really more important than you thought it was) happens to be the most important .2% and you end up going to hell for missing it? Do you think that could happen, or do you think God kind of overlooks those little problems?

spurly · 04-04-2003, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree
What happens if that .2% that you're wrong about (i.e. the Old Testament is really more important than you thought it was) happens to be the most important .2% and you end up going to hell for missing it? Do you think that could happen, or do you think God kind of overlooks those little problems?

I guess it could happen, but I doubt it. I am saved by grace through faith in what Christ did on the cross, not by assenting to a certain doctrinal statement concerning the OT, etc.

God knows that we are fallen. He also knows our hearts. If we get something wrong along the way, I think he is big enough to accept that, as long as we came to him through Jesus.

Kevin

Bree · 04-04-2003, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
God knows that we are fallen. He also knows our hearts. If we get something wrong along the way, I think he is big enough to accept that, as long as we came to him through Jesus.

So as long as a person came to God through Jesus, he'll make it to Heaven? Or will at least find favour in God's eyes?

spurly · 04-04-2003, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree
So as long as a person came to God through Jesus, he'll make it to Heaven? Or will at least find favour in God's eyes?

From my best study of Scripture, that is what it takes to get in the door, so to speak. Our works will also be judged, but those are not judged to determine whether we get in or not, they are judged to determine what type of rewards/responsibilities we will have in eternity.

Kevin

Bree · 04-04-2003, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
From my best study of Scripture, that is what it takes to get in the door, so to speak. Our works will also be judged, but those are not judged to determine whether we get in or not, they are judged to determine what type of rewards/responsibilities we will have in eternity.

So these people will get in the door (hey, they came to God through Jesus - they told me so themselves!), but their works will determine what kind of rewards or responsibilities they will get?

Calzaer · 04-04-2003, 11:23 PM

Alert! Alert! "No True Scottsman" Fallacy incoming! Brace for impact!

*cowers under the desk*

Starboy · 04-04-2003, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna
Step 1: force yourself through repetitive self-brainwashing to unquestioningly believe everything your church elders tell you
Step 2: Don't read the Bible
Step 3: Let someone else read the Bible to you, skipping over the bad parts and making sure you don't hear any contradictions
Step 4: Pray
Step 5: Once you have had the beliefs ingrained into your head, make sure you never think about them again
Step 6: If someone points out an inconsistency in the Bible, don't examine it. Just keep it in the back of your head until you see a proper pastor to give you some apologetics.
Step 7: Accept whatever the pastor gives for an explanation without thinking if it's possible or not (as per step 1)
Step 8: Every time you do something nice, just like you used to, remind yourself how you're only doing something nice because of your newfound godliness
Step 9: Bother the hell out of and estrange your old friends by witnessing to them
Step 10: Declare that they are immoral godless heathens when they don't want to be around you anymore
Step 11: Cut off all contact with heathens and surround yourself with like-minded godbots
Step 12: Sigh in relief as you have now brainwashed yourself so fully and cut yourself off enough from outside reason that you will never deconvert

Congratulations, you've made it through my 12-step program. You are now cured of your addiction to thinking.
-B

Sorry its a 14 step program,

Step 13: rinse
Step 14: repeat

Debbie T · 04-04-2003, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
Debbie, the class if for non-Christians who are interested in Christianity. What mental gymnastics would you be referring to?

Kevin

The mental gymnastics it takes to overlook the contradictions and absurdities in the bible. Plus how to overlook the atrocities committed in the bible. BTW the bible should have a rating for its violence and sex which includes rape, incest, adultery and that's just with the favored sons of the bible. Plus murder and mayhem. And then turn around and call the bible a moral guide for humans. Gymnastics like that Kevin.

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04-04-2003, 11:23 PM	#38
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	Alert! Alert! "No True Scottsman" Fallacy incoming! Brace for impact! cowers under the desk

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