Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GeoTheo · 09-10-2002, 12:55 PM

If I was 70 years old, and had led a life like Socrates, in pure persuit of truth, and some people got pissed off because I showed that they weren't as smart as they thought they were and went a head and filed trumped up charges on me-I'd say screw 'em. I think that's what Socrates did. I don't buy that he lied to save his life. He had more balls than that. For example he told them just how spineless some of them were in the jury when they had to come before it and plead for their lives. I don't think he was afraid of them or death.

SpeedKills · 09-10-2002, 01:44 PM

Erm...all I can say is that what you think is an inner voice that could be the "holy spirit" is what most people call "thinking". When people are about to take a course of action, they often "think". Maybe that is what it is. I often think about doing things.

That is perhaps how an atheist would account for your strange headache thing.

I think you've read too much Socrates. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Infinity Lover · 09-10-2002, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SpeedKills:
I think you've read too much Socrates. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Socrates never wrote anything.

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Eudaimonist · 09-10-2002, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:
If I was 70 years old, and had led a life like Socrates, in pure persuit of truth, and some people got pissed off because I showed that they weren't as smart as they thought they were and went a head and filed trumped up charges on me-I'd say screw 'em. I think that's what Socrates did. I don't buy that he lied to save his life. He had more balls than that. For example he told them just how spineless some of them were in the jury when they had to come before it and plead for their lives. I don't think he was afraid of them or death.

Socrates had ample opportunity to escape his death sentence after it was pronounced, but did not choose that. I agree that he would not have lied to the court. He had too much integrity for that. (I personally admire Socrates far more than Jesus.)

On the daimon issue, I'd say the daimon is likely a part of one's subconscious mind. There is a lot going on in the mind that one is not explicitly aware of, except perhaps in indirect ways. My subconscious mind once solved a vector math problem for me (correctly) such that I saw the answer appear before my mind's eye, unbidden and unsought. It was like getting a freebee answer out of a textbook. No, I don't think this was the result of a supernatural "math fairy".

abe smith · 09-11-2002, 05:28 AM

ummm. Yes: Socrates never wrote anything.!!! And doubt is considribble, GEO...>>> that his 'daimon" is concerned w/ you. Ummm I'd just like to suggest that you perhaps
better NOT get into splitting-off parts of your own psyche ( or Whuttevuh dat is) to produce self-aggrandizing entities
which *you* perceive/may like to think *not* to be parts of your *own* interior thinking. = 'cause "that way madness lies". Why not just assume, as most of the rest of us probably do, that what you receive as messages are just the *VERY ORDINARY* sorts of thoughts that we all have of recollected reading & memories et al. You are almost certainly (That's a skeptic's euphemism for "ABSOLUTELY NOT") NOT Socrates, nor any sort of reincarnation of Socrates. Do your own thinking; realize that it IZZ your own thinking; & let Socrates alone. Cordially, Abe.

GeoTheo · 09-11-2002, 09:08 AM

Abe:
I don't literally mean I have Socrates Daimon. I mean rather I believe I have the same principle working within myself that Socrates describes.

GeoTheo · 09-11-2002, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eudaimonist:


Socrates had ample opportunity to escape his death sentence after it was pronounced, but did not choose that. I agree that he would not have lied to the court. He had too much integrity for that. (I personally admire Socrates far more than Jesus.)

I would be interested in hearing more on your opinion of Socrates and how he compares with Jesus. I am considering writing a Paper comparing and contrasting them.
I personally see a lot of paralells.
* Neither wrote anything.
* Both Martyred for criticizing the establishment
* Both lived in poverty
* both engaged in rational dialogue
* Both attracted followers
* both shaped western thought

Kantian · 09-12-2002, 10:23 AM

Actually while Jesus engaged in a logical evolution of the traditional values as opposed to "rational discourse," to declare that both shaped western thought would be too disingenuous.

Rather, instead of taking second hand accounts at face value, we have their promoters Plato, Paul/other mythmakers to credit, since neither Socrates nor Jesus wrote anything.

Were you to truly be cursed or blessed with a daemon similar to Socrates, you would no longer be an apologist. "the unexamined life is not worth living." Therefore you do not have such a daemon.

Keith Russell · 09-12-2002, 11:26 AM

Greetings:

Jesus engaged in rational dialogue?

I'd love to see some evidence of this.

(For that matter, I'm not convinced what Socrates reportedly said and did could really be called 'rational' discourse.)

Keith.

abe smith · 09-13-2002, 05:48 AM

ummm. Based on *Plato*'s writings reporting what Socrates is reported to have said about his (S's) relationship w/ his private interior daimon, some present-day psyche-skewers have hazarded the opinion that (perhaps also like Jeanne d'Arc and some other similar outsider teeps... "Saint" Paul et al) that Socrates MAY have been subject to so-called epileptic events, or possibly to a temporal-lobe lesion (You can look it up.) : PHYSICAL variations wh/ MAY have something to do w/ "religiosity" and ummm auditory hallucinations...et tutti cuanti. I myself, skeptic, biologist & materialist and denier-of-dualism that I am, tend to fall-for (cf Saul of T.) "explanations" of this sort == the BodyMindSoul is ONE Thing.
Dig? Very interesting subject. Have I divagated from the matter-@-hand? You can look it up. Fer Sher, (even) if this is/were the case, it wd-not/do-not mitigate any values that these-all persons's percepts may have for us. (whew, did I get out the other-end of all-that?) Abe

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09-10-2002, 12:55 PM	#11
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	If I was 70 years old, and had led a life like Socrates, in pure persuit of truth, and some people got pissed off because I showed that they weren't as smart as they thought they were and went a head and filed trumped up charges on me-I'd say screw 'em. I think that's what Socrates did. I don't buy that he lied to save his life. He had more balls than that. For example he told them just how spineless some of them were in the jury when they had to come before it and plead for their lives. I don't think he was afraid of them or death.

09-10-2002, 01:44 PM	#12
SpeedKills New Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Manchester, England Posts: 1	Erm...all I can say is that what you think is an inner voice that could be the "holy spirit" is what most people call "thinking". When people are about to take a course of action, they often "think". Maybe that is what it is. I often think about doing things. That is perhaps how an atheist would account for your strange headache thing. I think you've read too much Socrates. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

09-11-2002, 05:28 AM	#15
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	ummm. Yes: Socrates never wrote anything.!!! And doubt is considribble, GEO...>>> that his 'daimon" is concerned w/ you. Ummm I'd just like to suggest that you perhaps better NOT get into splitting-off parts of your own psyche ( or Whuttevuh dat is) to produce self-aggrandizing entities which you perceive/may like to think not to be parts of your own interior thinking. = 'cause "that way madness lies". Why not just assume, as most of the rest of us probably do, that what you receive as messages are just the VERY ORDINARY sorts of thoughts that we all have of recollected reading & memories et al. You are almost certainly (That's a skeptic's euphemism for "ABSOLUTELY NOT") NOT Socrates, nor any sort of reincarnation of Socrates. Do your own thinking; realize that it IZZ your own thinking; & let Socrates alone. Cordially, Abe.

09-11-2002, 09:08 AM	#16
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	Abe: I don't literally mean I have Socrates Daimon. I mean rather I believe I have the same principle working within myself that Socrates describes.

09-12-2002, 10:23 AM	#18
Kantian Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Konigsberg Posts: 238	Actually while Jesus engaged in a logical evolution of the traditional values as opposed to "rational discourse," to declare that both shaped western thought would be too disingenuous. Rather, instead of taking second hand accounts at face value, we have their promoters Plato, Paul/other mythmakers to credit, since neither Socrates nor Jesus wrote anything. Were you to truly be cursed or blessed with a daemon similar to Socrates, you would no longer be an apologist. "the unexamined life is not worth living." Therefore you do not have such a daemon.

09-12-2002, 11:26 AM	#19
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: Jesus engaged in rational dialogue? I'd love to see some evidence of this. (For that matter, I'm not convinced what Socrates reportedly said and did could really be called 'rational' discourse.) Keith.

09-13-2002, 05:48 AM	#20
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	ummm. Based on Plato's writings reporting what Socrates is reported to have said about his (S's) relationship w/ his private interior daimon, some present-day psyche-skewers have hazarded the opinion that (perhaps also like Jeanne d'Arc and some other similar outsider teeps... "Saint" Paul et al) that Socrates MAY have been subject to so-called epileptic events, or possibly to a temporal-lobe lesion (You can look it up.) : PHYSICAL variations wh/ MAY have something to do w/ "religiosity" and ummm auditory hallucinations...et tutti cuanti. I myself, skeptic, biologist & materialist and denier-of-dualism that I am, tend to fall-for (cf Saul of T.) "explanations" of this sort == the BodyMindSoul is ONE Thing. Dig? Very interesting subject. Have I divagated from the matter-@-hand? You can look it up. Fer Sher, (even) if this is/were the case, it wd-not/do-not mitigate any values that these-all persons's percepts may have for us. (whew, did I get out the other-end of all-that?) Abe

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