Wyz_sub10

That isn't an insult. You have your opinion on how to meet god, I have mine.

Should I consider your original comments an insult to atheists? I don't, in any case, because I trust you believe this to be true. I am countering this opinion. What I believe to be true is that god does not exist - it is the idea of god that exists in the minds of theists, and it is this idea that theists have come to "know", not god.

Sorry, I thought I was clear that I meant "some theists" believe this. Not you, in particular. I do not think, from your few words, that you hold this to be true.

I do know of many theists who come here who think this to be true.

This is an odd statement - if you do not know my reasons, how can you categorize them as being subjective or objective? I think it's safe to say that I did not find a definitive, objective proof that god does not exist.

But if I find that Christian beliefs or positions are inconsistent with what I observe or measure, than those are definitely objective reasons. (I grant a measure of subjectivity in some areas, but certainly objective in several areas, by which we understand the word "objective")



I'm not speaking to sincere belief, I'm speaking to "deciding to believe". One cannot decide to believe in god anymore than one can choose to fall in love with the person seated next to them on the bus.

When someone insists that one should "open their heart" or "give their life to Jesus" or "listen to that voice that guides them" or whatever, what it boils down to it "choose to believe".

I stress this because even when one does the above with no results, they are told that they must be patient, or are not being completely sincere, or are not doing it right in whatever way. Sooner or later, a person may claim to experience god whether they have or not. (Because the expectation - and implication - is that they should, and if they haven't, maybe there's something wrong with them) This, IMO, is just a terrible aspect of the more charismatic religions.

(And just to intercept what you may be thinking - no, the above does not apply to my personal experience.)

I have no doubt that some peices fit, but I would bet they are the subjective ones - meaning of life, purpose, value.

I can't imagine anyone studying colorectal cancer for 20 years and concluding that god exists, for example.

From the poor design of the body, to the wealth of human tragedy, to even the benign (although most would disagree) fact that billions or people have conflicting "true, prophetic, absolute" stories about god and morality, the objective pieces are just not there.