Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Writer@Large · 03-12-2003, 03:32 PM

Folks, let's all remember that GRD is an "upper forum" now, and that all comments--even those in response to low and repugnant opinions--need to be kept more civil than they did when this was "Misc."

--W@L

trillian · 03-12-2003, 08:24 PM

I should clarify to my above post that I am not homosexual- but I am left-handed.

Remarkable similarities between the two, except that one of them is almost universally accepted (4 of the last 6 presidents are lefties) and one has many ignorant condemners- the same people of limited rational thought that punished the lefties.

I hope they don't breed.

Heleilu · 03-12-2003, 08:56 PM

Old Man, would you mind explaining again why God created people with homosexual desires? Your answer was lost somewhere in the crossfire.

Illithid · 03-12-2003, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by trillian1
I should clarify to my above post that I am not homosexual- but I am left-handed.

And I was just going to ask you out....

Seriously, I thought you left it that way as a teaser. I was just about to post asking about it when my connection went out to lunch.

It is a remarkable similarity. I've read comments from lefty organizations complaining about gay groups making the comparison, because left-handers are discriminated against enough already without being lumped in with gays. Didn't know whether to laugh or puke. Nice to see a straight southpaw make the link.

seanie · 03-13-2003, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Writer@Large
Folks, let's all remember that GRD is an "upper forum" now, and that all comments--even those in response to low and repugnant opinions--need to be kept more civil than they did when this was "Misc."

--W@L

Bet I made you chuckle though.

Captain Pedantic · 03-13-2003, 04:50 AM

Quote:

No & no, I would never contemplate becoming "friends" with one. They physically repel me. In any case, given that I believe all unrepentant homosexuals over 21 ought to be executed, they are hardly likely to want to be friends with me.

Well, isn't that just adorable? Just the cutest display of Christian love since that lovely Mr. Phelps. Although the Westboro Baptist Church does hold the position that Christianity is actually a religion of hate rather than love. And they do back it up with Biblical quotes - which is certainly interesting, for those like myself who cannot reconcile "love" with "burning in hell". Not that I would join a religion of hate. In fact, I would say that that religion sucks. But I appreciate their honesty, rather than some kind of "Ah, but this is a special Godly kind of love" theological knot-tying.

An interesting rumour (although just a rumour, so don't get excited. I don't have proof) that I heard - speaking of Fred Phelps - was that our dear friend Mr. P. had been caught with a male prostitute sometime in the 1970s.

It may well be false, but gossip fans like me still find it funny, I'm sure.

Quote:

Its difficult to answer your ranting because it is illogical. To unbelievers, the bible is and always will be a hate book, because it condemns their wickedness. That is inevitable. Just as the criminal justice system is a "hate" system to the professional crook, because it condemns his theft.

Nevertheless, the bible's message is one of uncondiional forgiveness, and that all men must repent in response to it. Have you?

So, I will be unconditionally forgiven by The Lord for my various sins if I subject to the conditions of...ah, wait.

Unfortunately, I won't be convinced by bullying "turn or burn" types pretending to like me and telling me that "God doesn't condemn you to hell, you make a choice to either do everything the Bible says, or BURN FOREVER IN THE FIERY DEPTHS OF HELL, YOU PITIFUL SINNER!!!!

To me, that's not a choice. To me, that's just unpleasant bullying, and I don't care if it is God doing it.

Also, I'm gay and will turn 21 in May. I am unlikely to be repenting then.

Would you like to execute me yourself? You can come down to Bognor and do it personally, safe in the knowledge that you are doing the work of the Lord

seanie · 03-13-2003, 04:54 AM

Just because he would like to execute you in a couple of months doesn't mean he doesn't love you.

It's tough love.

MrDarwin · 03-13-2003, 08:54 AM

What I want to know is why God created straight people. They just can't seem to stop killing each other.

Day After Court Deal, Man Kills Wife, Self

Quote:

A day after a courtroom deal was struck with a man who agreed to stay away from his estranged wife in exchange for charges being dropped, the two were found dead inside a home they once shared in Oxon Hill.

According to the Washington Post, on January 25th, Ernestine Dyson wrote in a criminal complaint that her estranged husband had choked her and threatened that "he was going to kill us both and that he had nothing to live for so as long as I was dead with him that was fine."

spurly · 03-13-2003, 05:58 PM

As a Christian, I want to distance myself from the posts of some of the other so-called Christians who have responded to this thread. I do not believe that homosexuals deserve to be executed.

As to the question that started this thread "why did God create gay people?", that question is making a couple of assumptions that I am not willing to make. The first one is that God creates people and dooms them from their birth by wiring them to be attracted to the same sex. This is an assumption that is yet to be proven. I believe that there are a variety of reasons that someone chooses to live the homosexual lifestyle - including environment, family, what they are exposed to sexually as children, and possibly genetic factors (though again, this is yet to be proven).

The second assumption that it makes is that God creates all of us with certain propensities to do things that he considers "unholy". For example, he creates bank robbers with a desire to rob banks and they need to do that in order to be fulfilled. He creates liars with the desire to lie, and they can not do anything against the nature that he creates.

And finally this question does not take into account the fall and the affect that sin and evil has had on mankind through the years. In the beginning God did create a perfect world. But after sin entered the world, the perfection left - or rather we were barred from the perfect environment.

So what do I think the answer is? God creates all people (I realize some of you will say this is an assumption as well, but it is my assumption

). His desire is that we avoid anything that goes contrary to his nature, and this includes sexual sins. But, we live in a world where evil is allowed to roam until Christ returns and sets up his eternal kingdom. Until then, we have to do battle against fleshly desires that fly in the face of the holiness of God.

All of us are tempted in one area or another. Some are tempted with homosexuality. Does this make them evil people? No. But it does separate them from the Creator who formed them to have a relationship of love with him - just like all sin does. Whenever someone chooses to act on homosexual temptations, that's when the problem comes in between them and God. (Just like if a heterosexual person acted on his desire to have a relationship before marriage or outside of marriage).

So I guess what I am trying to say is this. God did not create "homosexuals" or "murderers" or "liars" or "cheats" or "etc." Instead, he created people who make a choice to act in areas that go contrary to his will.

Why did he create people and give them choices like that? Because of his desire to have a relationship of love with us. Without the freedom to choose to love him or not to love him, our relationship with him wouldn't really be based on love. So he gave us a choice. You can love me, or you can live a different life. If you choose not to love me, I will not force myself on you or force you to spend eternity with me. I will allow you to have what you choose, an eternity separated from me. Unfortunately, when God is withdrawn from the equation, evil runs rampant. Thus the place without him, will be a very cruel and evil place.

I'm sure someone will say, "that's not true. I don't believe in God, and I am still a moral person". To that I would say this. We still have God's image with us. Even people who don't choose to live in a relationship with him becaue they don't believe he exists were made in the image of God. As such, there will be some people who do not believe in his existence who will still exhibit characteristics of their creator.

Well, that's all for now. I'm sure I will hear from you soon.

Kevin (who doesn't hate any sinners. Instead he loves them with the love of God. He loves them enough to want the best for them - A relationship with God. So he has to tell them God's best plan for their life so they at least have a choice. But the choice is up to them.)

Treacle Worshipper · 03-13-2003, 06:48 PM

I'm really tired & I probably shouldn't be trying to respond to this, but... argle, argle, argle, argle :banghead:

Originally posted by spurly
As a Christian, I want to distance myself from the posts of some of the other so-called Christians who have responded to this thread. I do not believe that homosexuals deserve to be executed.
Thank you. Given some of the things that have been said recently on this thread, it is good to hear a different opinion.

As to the question that started this thread "why did God create gay people?", that question is making a couple of assumptions that I am not willing to make. The first one is that God creates people and dooms them from their birth by wiring them to be attracted to the same sex. This is an assumption that is yet to be proven.
I am going to argue that since god created the world with full knowledge of what would happen in it, he is ultimately responsible for everything that happens in it. Therefore, even if he does not create gays directly, he is responsible for their predicament. He is indirectly responsible for who they are and directly responsible for a morality which leaves them outcast.

I believe that there are a variety of reasons that someone chooses to live the homosexual lifestyle - including environment, family, what they are exposed to sexually as children, and possibly genetic factors (though again, this is yet to be proven).
Two points:
1) Will someone please tell me what a "homosexual lifestyle is? I have asked this several times, and no-one has deigned to answer.
2) Spurly, you have brought up the matter of "choice", while listing factors which largely remove choice from the situation. As Salmon of Doubt has posted earlier on this board, there is evidence that hormone levels in the womb affect a person's sexuality. Therefore their sexuality is hardly a matter of choice, is it?

The second assumption that it makes is that God creates all of us with certain propensities to do things that he considers "unholy". For example, he creates bank robbers with a desire to rob banks and they need to do that in order to be fulfilled. He creates liars with the desire to lie, and they can not do anything against the nature that he creates.
But the activities you list above are ones which really do have an element of choice in them. Robbing banks and lying are both learned activities, while sexuality is not either learned or an activity, altho' it is usually expressed through activity

And finally this question does not take into account the fall and the affect that sin and evil has had on mankind through the years. In the beginning God did create a perfect world. But after sin entered the world, the perfection left - or rather we were barred from the perfect environment.
See what I said above about god's responsiblity. I'm not going to get into the "if god created a perfect world how did sin enter it?" argument.

So what do I think the answer is? God creates all people (I realize some of you will say this is an assumption as well, but it is my assumption ).
Yes, but we are working with that assumption; the original question included that assumption.

All of us are tempted in one area or another. Some are tempted with homosexuality. Does this make them evil people? No. But it does separate them from the Creator who formed them to have a relationship of love with him - just like all sin does.
Would you care to clarify? You have just stated that being tempted by homosexuality (=being homosexual, AFAIAC) is a sin. I think you really mean what you went on to state:

Whenever someone chooses to act on homosexual temptations, that's when the problem comes in between them and God. (Just like if a heterosexual person acted on his desire to have a relationship before marriage or outside of marriage).
But the situation of a gay person is not comparable to that of a het person. Het people can get married. Paul says "it is better to marry than to burn with passion" - which at least could be argued that "lust marriages" are permissible, if not ideal. A gay person can never be married or express their sexuality in any way under Xian morality. Apart from being unfair, this is simpy impossible for the vast majority of the human race. Gays are effectively being set up to fail.

So I guess what I am trying to say is this. God did not create "homosexuals" or "murderers" or "liars" or "cheats" or "etc." Instead, he created people who make a choice to act in areas that go contrary to his will.
Do you really think that gays are on a par with murderers? It makes me very sad to feel that someone thinks like that about me.

Spurly, try to imagine what it would be like if someone told you you could never indulge in your sexuality in any way, shape or form. You're not allowed to have a loving permanent relationship. Your not allowed to be close or special to anyone, ever. You have to censor your thoughts, because your fantasies are evil and to indulge in them is to play with temptation. Think how unutterably lonely such a life is. Would a loving father really condemn his child to 70 or so years of that?

Why did he create people and give them choices like that? Because of his desire to have a relationship of love with us. Without the freedom to choose to love him or not to love him, our relationship with him wouldn't really be based on love. So he gave us a choice. You can love me, or you can live a different life. If you choose not to love me, I will not force myself on you or force you to spend eternity with me. I will allow you to have what you choose, an eternity separated from me.
Can you explain to me why 2 people of the same sex involved in a loving relationship is going to take away from god's relationship with either one of them, if god is capable of sustaining a relationship with each partner in a het relationship?

Unfortunately, when God is withdrawn from the equation, evil runs rampant. Thus the place without him, will be a very cruel and evil place.
This is a cheap shot, but: when god is put into the equation, evil also runs rampant. You're too intelligent not to be aware of church history. You may say that god was not behind the crusades, etc., but certainly they would not have happened if people hadn't chosen to bring their ideas of god into the equation. [Off topic: I think the saddest and most ironic thing about the crusades is that when the first crusaders finally got to the holy land, the first people they massacred were some native coptic Xians.)

Well, that's all for now. I'm sure I will hear from you soon.
Soon enough?

I apologise for any incoherences, and I am now off to bed. (On my own. As usual. So much for my "gay lifestyle"

TW

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03-12-2003, 03:32 PM	#71
Writer@Large Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 7,198	Folks, let's all remember that GRD is an "upper forum" now, and that all comments--even those in response to low and repugnant opinions--need to be kept more civil than they did when this was "Misc." --W@L

03-12-2003, 08:24 PM	#72
trillian Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: OC Posts: 1,620	I should clarify to my above post that I am not homosexual- but I am left-handed. Remarkable similarities between the two, except that one of them is almost universally accepted (4 of the last 6 presidents are lefties) and one has many ignorant condemners- the same people of limited rational thought that punished the lefties. I hope they don't breed.

03-12-2003, 08:56 PM	#73
Heleilu Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Takaliapa, KR Posts: 188	Old Man, would you mind explaining again why God created people with homosexual desires? Your answer was lost somewhere in the crossfire.

03-13-2003, 04:54 AM	#77
seanie Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edinburgh. Scotland Posts: 2,532	Just because he would like to execute you in a couple of months doesn't mean he doesn't love you. It's tough love.

03-13-2003, 05:58 PM	#79
spurly Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 710	As a Christian, I want to distance myself from the posts of some of the other so-called Christians who have responded to this thread. I do not believe that homosexuals deserve to be executed. As to the question that started this thread "why did God create gay people?", that question is making a couple of assumptions that I am not willing to make. The first one is that God creates people and dooms them from their birth by wiring them to be attracted to the same sex. This is an assumption that is yet to be proven. I believe that there are a variety of reasons that someone chooses to live the homosexual lifestyle - including environment, family, what they are exposed to sexually as children, and possibly genetic factors (though again, this is yet to be proven). The second assumption that it makes is that God creates all of us with certain propensities to do things that he considers "unholy". For example, he creates bank robbers with a desire to rob banks and they need to do that in order to be fulfilled. He creates liars with the desire to lie, and they can not do anything against the nature that he creates. And finally this question does not take into account the fall and the affect that sin and evil has had on mankind through the years. In the beginning God did create a perfect world. But after sin entered the world, the perfection left - or rather we were barred from the perfect environment. So what do I think the answer is? God creates all people (I realize some of you will say this is an assumption as well, but it is my assumption ). His desire is that we avoid anything that goes contrary to his nature, and this includes sexual sins. But, we live in a world where evil is allowed to roam until Christ returns and sets up his eternal kingdom. Until then, we have to do battle against fleshly desires that fly in the face of the holiness of God. All of us are tempted in one area or another. Some are tempted with homosexuality. Does this make them evil people? No. But it does separate them from the Creator who formed them to have a relationship of love with him - just like all sin does. Whenever someone chooses to act on homosexual temptations, that's when the problem comes in between them and God. (Just like if a heterosexual person acted on his desire to have a relationship before marriage or outside of marriage). So I guess what I am trying to say is this. God did not create "homosexuals" or "murderers" or "liars" or "cheats" or "etc." Instead, he created people who make a choice to act in areas that go contrary to his will. Why did he create people and give them choices like that? Because of his desire to have a relationship of love with us. Without the freedom to choose to love him or not to love him, our relationship with him wouldn't really be based on love. So he gave us a choice. You can love me, or you can live a different life. If you choose not to love me, I will not force myself on you or force you to spend eternity with me. I will allow you to have what you choose, an eternity separated from me. Unfortunately, when God is withdrawn from the equation, evil runs rampant. Thus the place without him, will be a very cruel and evil place. I'm sure someone will say, "that's not true. I don't believe in God, and I am still a moral person". To that I would say this. We still have God's image with us. Even people who don't choose to live in a relationship with him becaue they don't believe he exists were made in the image of God. As such, there will be some people who do not believe in his existence who will still exhibit characteristics of their creator. Well, that's all for now. I'm sure I will hear from you soon. Kevin (who doesn't hate any sinners. Instead he loves them with the love of God. He loves them enough to want the best for them - A relationship with God. So he has to tell them God's best plan for their life so they at least have a choice. But the choice is up to them.)

03-13-2003, 06:48 PM	#80
Treacle Worshipper Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 931	I'm really tired & I probably shouldn't be trying to respond to this, but... argle, argle, argle, argle :banghead: Originally posted by spurly As a Christian, I want to distance myself from the posts of some of the other so-called Christians who have responded to this thread. I do not believe that homosexuals deserve to be executed. Thank you. Given some of the things that have been said recently on this thread, it is good to hear a different opinion. As to the question that started this thread "why did God create gay people?", that question is making a couple of assumptions that I am not willing to make. The first one is that God creates people and dooms them from their birth by wiring them to be attracted to the same sex. This is an assumption that is yet to be proven. I am going to argue that since god created the world with full knowledge of what would happen in it, he is ultimately responsible for everything that happens in it. Therefore, even if he does not create gays directly, he is responsible for their predicament. He is indirectly responsible for who they are and directly responsible for a morality which leaves them outcast. I believe that there are a variety of reasons that someone chooses to live the homosexual lifestyle - including environment, family, what they are exposed to sexually as children, and possibly genetic factors (though again, this is yet to be proven). Two points: 1) Will someone please tell me what a "homosexual lifestyle is? I have asked this several times, and no-one has deigned to answer. 2) Spurly, you have brought up the matter of "choice", while listing factors which largely remove choice from the situation. As Salmon of Doubt has posted earlier on this board, there is evidence that hormone levels in the womb affect a person's sexuality. Therefore their sexuality is hardly a matter of choice, is it? The second assumption that it makes is that God creates all of us with certain propensities to do things that he considers "unholy". For example, he creates bank robbers with a desire to rob banks and they need to do that in order to be fulfilled. He creates liars with the desire to lie, and they can not do anything against the nature that he creates. But the activities you list above are ones which really do have an element of choice in them. Robbing banks and lying are both learned activities, while sexuality is not either learned or an activity, altho' it is usually expressed through activity And finally this question does not take into account the fall and the affect that sin and evil has had on mankind through the years. In the beginning God did create a perfect world. But after sin entered the world, the perfection left - or rather we were barred from the perfect environment. See what I said above about god's responsiblity. I'm not going to get into the "if god created a perfect world how did sin enter it?" argument. So what do I think the answer is? God creates all people (I realize some of you will say this is an assumption as well, but it is my assumption ). Yes, but we are working with that assumption; the original question included that assumption. All of us are tempted in one area or another. Some are tempted with homosexuality. Does this make them evil people? No. But it does separate them from the Creator who formed them to have a relationship of love with him - just like all sin does. Would you care to clarify? You have just stated that being tempted by homosexuality (=being homosexual, AFAIAC) is a sin. I think you really mean what you went on to state: Whenever someone chooses to act on homosexual temptations, that's when the problem comes in between them and God. (Just like if a heterosexual person acted on his desire to have a relationship before marriage or outside of marriage). But the situation of a gay person is not comparable to that of a het person. Het people can get married. Paul says "it is better to marry than to burn with passion" - which at least could be argued that "lust marriages" are permissible, if not ideal. A gay person can never be married or express their sexuality in any way under Xian morality. Apart from being unfair, this is simpy impossible for the vast majority of the human race. Gays are effectively being set up to fail. So I guess what I am trying to say is this. God did not create "homosexuals" or "murderers" or "liars" or "cheats" or "etc." Instead, he created people who make a choice to act in areas that go contrary to his will. Do you really think that gays are on a par with murderers? It makes me very sad to feel that someone thinks like that about me. Spurly, try to imagine what it would be like if someone told you you could never indulge in your sexuality in any way, shape or form. You're not allowed to have a loving permanent relationship. Your not allowed to be close or special to anyone, ever. You have to censor your thoughts, because your fantasies are evil and to indulge in them is to play with temptation. Think how unutterably lonely such a life is. Would a loving father really condemn his child to 70 or so years of that? Why did he create people and give them choices like that? Because of his desire to have a relationship of love with us. Without the freedom to choose to love him or not to love him, our relationship with him wouldn't really be based on love. So he gave us a choice. You can love me, or you can live a different life. If you choose not to love me, I will not force myself on you or force you to spend eternity with me. I will allow you to have what you choose, an eternity separated from me. Can you explain to me why 2 people of the same sex involved in a loving relationship is going to take away from god's relationship with either one of them, if god is capable of sustaining a relationship with each partner in a het relationship? Unfortunately, when God is withdrawn from the equation, evil runs rampant. Thus the place without him, will be a very cruel and evil place. This is a cheap shot, but: when god is put into the equation, evil also runs rampant. You're too intelligent not to be aware of church history. You may say that god was not behind the crusades, etc., but certainly they would not have happened if people hadn't chosen to bring their ideas of god into the equation. [Off topic: I think the saddest and most ironic thing about the crusades is that when the first crusaders finally got to the holy land, the first people they massacred were some native coptic Xians.) Well, that's all for now. I'm sure I will hear from you soon. Soon enough? I apologise for any incoherences, and I am now off to bed. (On my own. As usual. So much for my "gay lifestyle" TW

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