FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > IIDB ARCHIVE: 200X-2003, PD 2007 > IIDB Philosophical Forums (PRIOR TO JUN-2003)
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 05:55 AM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-29-2003, 07:27 AM   #11
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 5,047
Arrow

Quote:
What exactly is so horrible about this? If someone said that they are praying to santa, zeus, or the tooth fairy to comfort me I would not be offended. I would thank them. Well, God goes along those lines. I am not angry at God, I do not thing that she is there to be angry with. So why the sensitivity. I understand they believe in her, so instead, I try to see that they are trying to reach out in the only way that they are able to.
Already answered here, BG ~

If more people said "I care about you" and offered so many better ways to provide comfort and strength the healing process would be far less confusing and nonsensical.

And additional consideration is found here ~

Quote:
Again, as an atheist that holds to the brass examination of a foolish and insulting ritual, this assessment may be perceived as emotionally unpopular ~ which is nearly always to the benefit of organized religion.
Religions are harmful to individual integrity and reflective of a reliance on supernatural hocum that detracts from real and active compassion.

My conviction is that such a reliance on mysticism and 'faith' is not a productive way to seek solutions to very human concerns.

Any silent acquiescence to such addle brained behavior merely perpetuates the traits in others as they are offered no alternative.

I see, firsthand, the results of such a reliance on the imaginary in my career...and it detracts from order and reason.

Also, I am not 'offended' or 'sensitive' to the issue.

I am merely offering my conviction just as you did ~ so there is no reason to try to mischaracterize my unpopular refutation of prayer.

Quote:
Also, you may not know the beliefs of Trent Dilfer. He may just find comfort and solice in these prayers.
There's really no way to know, however, the compassionate example that I provided would not run the risk of offending the mourner...while the questions already posed in this thread indicate specifically how confusing it can become when imaginary deities begin to compete over lost loved ones.
Ronin is offline  
Old 04-29-2003, 07:29 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Massachusetts State Home for the Bewildered
Posts: 961
Default

Trent Dilfer is a strong evangelical christian, IIRC, so I imagine he will actually be emotionally lifted by the fact that so many are praying for him. It may just be a placebo effect, but I doubt it's going to offend him, or do him any harm.
Beetle is offline  
Old 04-29-2003, 07:35 AM   #13
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 5,047
Arrow

Ah, evangelical...no Muslim petitions then.

Ronin is offline  
Old 04-29-2003, 11:02 AM   #14
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: MN, USA
Posts: 25
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronin

Religions are harmful to individual integrity and reflective of a reliance on supernatural hocum that detracts from real and active compassion.
A rather strong generalization, no? It may surprise you to know that a faithful Christian would not only pray, but also help in any way he could. Furthermore, he would he out of love, by love I mean kindness, caring, compassionate.
Appius is offline  
Old 04-29-2003, 11:34 AM   #15
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,479
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronin
(...) The compassionate example that I provided would not run the risk of offending the mourner...while the questions already posed in this thread indicate specifically how confusing it can become when imaginary deities begin to compete over lost loved ones.
Hmm. I think that this can also be used as an argument to not start a discussion about the evils of prayer over the still almost open grave of lost loved ones, since it will very likely offend the mourner(s).

To be clear, I'd tell somebody who wanted to pray for me if I had a broken leg: "No thanks, but would you help me with grocery shopping?" If my child or a person I love had just died, on the other hand, I would accept their prayer offer as evidence that they don't know how to deal with this in a better way, but still tried. I wouldn't discuss it then. Maybe later, but not in that moment. I also think that while I believe religion is a delusion and thus a harm in its own right, I don't have the right to tell people that they're delusional about things very dear to them. It's not my business, since it's their head, not mine. If I have grounds to believe that these delusions make the person a danger, OTOH, I'd seek professional help.

Enai
Enai is offline  
Old 04-29-2003, 01:23 PM   #16
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 5,047
Arrow

Quote:
A rather strong generalization, no?
I make my assessment based on the historical record and current events.

Quote:
It may surprise you to know that a faithful Christian would not only pray, but also help in any way he could. Furthermore, he would he out of love, by love I mean kindness, caring, compassionate.
I am not anti-theist and realize that the bringing of food, hugs and sincere condolences comes from our common humanity.

This thread, however, focuses on the pros and cons of the ritualistic, confusing and meaningless act of petitioning deities...and that is what I address topically.
Ronin is offline  
Old 04-29-2003, 01:35 PM   #17
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 5,047
Arrow

Quote:
Hmm. I think that this can also be used as an argument to not start a discussion about the evils of prayer over the still almost open grave of lost loved ones, since it will very likely offend the mourner(s).

To be clear, I'd tell somebody who wanted to pray for me if I had a broken leg: "No thanks, but would you help me with grocery shopping?" If my child or a person I love had just died, on the other hand, I would accept their prayer offer as evidence that they don't know how to deal with this in a better way, but still tried. I wouldn't discuss it then. Maybe later, but not in that moment. I also think that while I believe religion is a delusion and thus a harm in its own right, I don't have the right to tell people that they're delusional about things very dear to them. It's not my business, since it's their head, not mine. If I have grounds to believe that these delusions make the person a danger, OTOH, I'd seek professional help.

Enai
I never stated that I would start a discussion about the evils of prayer with a mourner (atheist or theist), during such a vulnerable time...I am discussing it here and am fully aware that the superstitious have the upper hand at that particular time in promoting their myths without dissent.

That is one of the points I hoped to have made clear in my posts.

I have, however, made it a distinct point to offer refutations of these types of religious assertions at less emotional times in order to bring to their world the knowledge that reality in plain view is more wonderful to experience than some third rate science fiction story full of error.
Ronin is offline  
Old 04-29-2003, 07:54 PM   #18
Talk Freethought Staff
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 32,364
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronin
I never stated that I would start a discussion about the evils of prayer with a mourner (atheist or theist), during such a vulnerable time...I am discussing it here and am fully aware that the superstitious have the upper hand at that particular time in promoting their myths without dissent.

That is one of the points I hoped to have made clear in my posts.

I have, however, made it a distinct point to offer refutations of these types of religious assertions at less emotional times in order to bring to their world the knowledge that reality in plain view is more wonderful to experience than some third rate science fiction story full of error.
I would not want to cause you to take a bad fall from your chair but I actualy agree with your statement.... indirectly though.

I would prefer if I were grieving the death of a loved one to have a human presence attending to my personal pain rather than a crowd in prayer for me. At times I faced difficult circumstances and even though I am a christian, it almost bothered me that someone would pray loudly by me and for me when I only longed for pure human empathy. I believe that God can manifest comfort thru that human empathy and it needs to be active and demonstrated by presence and positive actions.( this is where the "indirectly" comes from).
I have caught myself being rather inefficient as a christian telling someone who just offloaded their pain on my shoulder " I'll pray for you" as I would go on with my personal happy merry life not realizing that the requirement was consistant presence and counseling.
Prayer has become a social gesture almost... the principle of praying in the secrecy of a bedroom behind a close door was meant to promote a petition from the believer to God not to make it a public announcement with an audience.
Possibly the prayer of a deaf and mute believer may be a delight to God.....
Sabine Grant is offline  
Old 04-29-2003, 11:41 PM   #19
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 5,047
Exclamation

Quote:
I would not want to cause you to take a bad fall from your chair but I actualy agree with your statement....


Ronin is offline  
Old 04-30-2003, 05:18 AM   #20
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,479
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronin
I never stated that I would start a discussion about the evils of prayer with a mourner (atheist or theist), during such a vulnerable time...I am discussing it here and am fully aware that the superstitious have the upper hand at that particular time in promoting their myths without dissent.

That is one of the points I hoped to have made clear in my posts.

I have, however, made it a distinct point to offer refutations of these types of religious assertions at less emotional times in order to bring to their world the knowledge that reality in plain view is more wonderful to experience than some third rate science fiction story full of error.
Of course you didn't say that you would start a discussion on the pro's and con's of prayer with a mourner when s/he is very vulnerable. I think I just didn't do a good job of reading your posts (english is a second language for me, so I have trouble picking up finer nuances). Your position seems to be: "They do something nonsensical, but I will only discuss the nonsense on appropriate times". If that is true, we agree.

Have a nice labour day!
Enai
Enai is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:47 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.