brighid

Shamon – what part of it doesn’t absorb as well, isn’t as good as source of those necessary nutrients, etc. don’t YOU understand!?! A bushel of vegetables won’t provide me with the equivalent I can get from a slab of meat! So, although vegetables do contain protein and most of the essential vitamins, etc. the HUMAN body doesn’t process it as WELL even though whole fruits and vegetables are a necessary and healthy part of a balanced diet.

And human intelligence has really little to do with reptilian digestive abilities or antibiotic production. Our minds could still well evolve to this point we are now AND maintained reptilian digestive abilities AND antibiotic production – we just didn’t luck out. Imagine how many fewer animals we would have to kill if we could only be like the crocodile!

And for those who are lactose intolerant – ME – dairy products suck! And it really sucks for me because I love cheese and ice cream, but I can only eat it in very small quantities or else I experience some unfortunate (yet avoidable) pain and discomfort. I also have a problem with yeast! Oh – and LOVE beans, but beans and I have a love/hate relationship. I love them but they don’t love me – actually my intestinal tract has a severe dislike for beans and I make a damn good multi-bean chili! And when I was pregnant with my son I couldn’t drink milk or eat cheese because it curdled in my stomach and I would throw it all up in a matter of minutes. Soy did the same thing. Chicken, some fruits and some vegetables were about all I could keep down and I was sick the ENTIRE pregnancy (oh – and crackers, crackers by the truck load) and for the 1st six months I had to keep a barf bag with my at all times because I vomited so much. I couldn’t even eat eggs and one night I had an especially bad barfing episode after eating eggs. And the prenatal pills made me sick too! Those damned horse pills came right up and let me tell ya – they don’t taste good going down and even worse when returning to dry land. So, I HAD to get my iron, protein, B-12, and everything else from the MEAT I could eat! And because my sense of smell was so strong I couldn’t really stand the smell of beef or fish, especially fish – makes me nauseated just thinking about that time. And I craved chicken livers, apples and oranges like they were going out of style. On two separate occasions I literally ate an entire bag of apples and later oranges!

So, in theory, all of your ideas are nice but in reality they don’t work so well for a broad population and specifically they don’t work at all for me.

And let’s make it clear that I have not stated that “anyone” can be healthy on an exclusively vegetarian diet as it naturally occurs, but rather SOME can AND that people should follow a primarily vegetarian diet – not an exclusive one. Specifically those who have access to supplementation and for those who don’t have health restrictions that make it impossible for them to maintain proper health on a strictly vegetarian diet – such as food allergies and lactose intolerance – all very common ailments in the general population.

Now you say that it takes 3-20 years for B-12 stores to deplete, well if you never had any B-12 in your diet (as one that naturally occurs in a vegetarian diet unaltered by science) that might be quicker AND if you eat a vegetarian diet all your life 3-20 years is not a long time! I’m 30 and anytime from age 3 on I could have experienced some of those nasty side effects of lack of B-12. Imagine if my mother never got any of that stuff while I was pregnant. And guess what – if I eat meat I won’t ever have to worry about B-12 depletion, low iron or amino acid absorption or brittle hair, fingernails, bad skin or any of those diseases associated it with a malnourished diet.

I eat plenty of fish, much more then the average American. Last night I made this delicious cornmeal and almond encrusted ahi tuna, first marinated in soy sauce, fresh garlic and red pepper and then fried in a smoked serano chili infused olive oil, served with a spinach salad, fresh fruit and baked yams with apples and cinnamon. It was sooooo good! Tonight – a nice rare steak. Oh – by the way I have actually tried red meat absolutely raw and it tastes just fine – very tender. However, I do prefer my steak seared and rare.

Brighid

shamon

I don’t agree that they don’t absorb as well. The reason I don’t bring it up is b/c it’s not related to my argument. No digesting as well is not an argument for killing. Not digesting AT ALL is. You never said this so therefore if you feel that unneeded killing is wrong, you shouldn’t kill an animal; just choose the best plant sources for your situation.

Human intelligence has EVERYTHING to do with our digestive and other physical abilities. Every physical specialization results in less resources for intelligence. We CANNOT develop the intelligence we have AND retain primitive digestive capabilities. If we could, that’s what would’ve happened b/c natural selection would never select for something disadvantageous. We lucked out all right, we’re brilliant comparatively. Natural selection isn’t about luck.

Does natural selection ever select something disadvantageous?

These are interesting details but not really related. You can get B12 without eating meat so you don’t have to kill.

These are myths to dissuade people from becoming vegetarians. “Your eyebrows will fall out”, “You’ll be anemic”, etc. You don’t have to resort to these tactics. If you circumcise your child you’ll never have to worry about penile cancer, but is that a justification.

I’m still curious – why do you imply that B12 deficiency can results in birth defects? Why did you associate B12 with folate? One IS important to particularly keep in mind during pregnancy (folate). The other (B12) doesn’t require any more thought than Vitamin C, Vitamin A, etc.

Being concerned with your health isn’t ridiculous and taking a supplement if you have concerns isn’t extreme.

TRIED red meat? You implied that you have eaten red meat RAW and that it was fine. RARE is not RAW. In fact, you stated that "Raw meat (if it weren't contaminated with any microbes or pathogens to make you sick) is actually more nutritious then cooked meat. Cooking fruits, vegetables, or meat destroys some of the vitamins, minerals and other nutrients."
Why do you prefer to eat you meat cooked if the process of cooking deprives it of nutrients that you ALREADY cannot adequately absorb by eating plants?

brighid

Animals have instinctive defense mechanisms so they can preserve their species – survival of the fittest! The strongest animals will survive and the weak and the ill will succumb to their natural predators and preserve the healthy among their species. Just because they have the natural inclination for self-preservation doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be eaten. It just means nature has designed them with the desire to stick around. She also designed meat eating predators for a reason as well, including building in the same survival instincts.

Scientific data states that WITHOUT supplementation a naturally occurring vegetarian diet is deficient in essential nutrients and eventually you will succumb to B-12 depletion. So – unless you are able to synthetically fortify your diet you will become weak and die of malnourishment. Therefore, the scientific data shows that human animals are not designed to be exclusively vegetarians.

Animals are designed to be a food source for both human and some non-human animals. We can’t escape the reality of Mother Nature. And despite the fact that I actively support animal rights, the preservation of their natural habitats, etc. and I love animals doesn’t change my biology or evolution. Lean animal sources are the BEST and most efficiently useable sources of essential nutrients, far better then vegetable sources. Unfortunately, most people eat too much meat and not enough vegetables, fruits and grains because our diets are highly processed. That doesn’t make meat is bad, it just means most people don’t know a damned thing about nutrition, eat poorly and too much of anything can be a bad thing – even the things we need to live and grow.

And sorry to be harsh – but reality is that if you feed your children a naturally occurring vegetarian diet, or even one with supplementation they will not be as physically strong as children fed on a naturally occurring well balanced diet that includes animal protein. Amino acids, etc. are vital building blocks of life. And if I (and my children) are absorbing between 10-20% more nutrients – guess what, we are going to be stronger and possibly smarter. Same goes if I am investing my money in stocks that yield 10-20% more – I will also be richer. That is reality, harsh and unfair as it is. And perhaps my children will be smarter – but generally it is easier to learn when your diet is rich in ALL the essential nutrients and isn’t deficient or overloaded with things that are harmful to the body. And although my son sometimes complains about eating his vegetables I make sure that he eats plenty of them! He also didn’t really like it when I changed from white rice, bread and pasta to whole grain, but he got use to it and now loves it. He is also one of the few American children that chooses fish when we go out to eat – and not fried fish either He is also a superior athlete, although I must admit that part of it is because he has some great genes - his biological father being a world class athlete and all but I bet his success in school and in athletics has a bit to do with his balanced diet. Mother Nature really doesn’t care about your feelings, as a matter of fact nature is indifferent to feelings, human or for those more highly evolved non-human animals.


Brighid

shamon

I’m curious about your term “naturally occurring vegetarian diet”. What do you mean by this. I generally just say vegetarian b/c a vegetarian diet can provide all of the essential nutrients (ADA position).

Also, “fittest” has NOTHING to do with physicality. Our environment supports intelligence and that’s what has been selected for over the last few millions years for humans. Humans don’t really have natural predators (maybe viruses). Self-preservation for humans means valueing brain over brawn. As our teeth get weaker (how many wolves have you seen with missing teeth) we get smarter b/c evolution is a sort of end game. One intelligence advantage means less of a physical advantage. Am I not being clear? The “fittest” among humans is the smartest, as long as you don’t have a mortal illness or genetic defect.

You still haven’t answered my questions about:

1. Why did associate B12 with folate and imply that expectant mothers should be concerned about their B12 b/c of birth defects?
2. How many times have you eaten meat RAW and if you don’t generally eat meat RAW or feed your children raw meat, then why considering you said it was the healthiest way to eat meat (b/c of taste and the amount of nutrients lost in the cooking process)?

Rational Ag

My moral framework isn't so parsimonious that I "feel" for animals, nor do I regard them with any particular rights or privileges. The argument appealing to emotion doesn't affect my sense of right or wrong any more than someone who "feels" like their religion is right.

You personally don't eat red meat because of your respect and concern for animals as a life equal to yours. Do you do so with fish? Insects? Plants? Where you draw your line is in a different place than myself.

You are free to live your life as you wish. Nobody tells you that you have to eat meat and I doubt anyone tells you that you are wrong to eat plants. Your moral framework is no better or justified than mine, it's just different. You draw lines of right and wrong based on your feelings, justified by your parsimony. You are more parsimonious than I am, but you are by no means 100% parsimonious either. You are OK eating plants. They are a life form; they exist and grow just like you do. If you were 100% parsimonious you wouldn’t even think about damaging that beautiful potato plant. When you harvest and eat green beans you are preventing that plant from procreating. By your own argument from parsimony, what makes you think you have the right to harvest plants but not animals?

If you argue that they have feelings and thoughts, where do you draw the line? Do you draw the line at what you think is “cute” and what you think “isn’t cute”?

Although I see the health benefits of eating meat, I don't do so because of them. I enjoy eating meat. It's scrumptious. Steak tastes great. A grilled chicken breast with some garlic and basil...MMM! I eat meat because I enjoy it, and I have no moral problems with doing so. I don't value the lives of animals and other beings as much as value humans; it's a clear difference to me.

It seems to me as though those of you that appeal to emotions regarding animals tend to anthropomorphize animals and give them human attributes. Disney films that give animals emotions, feelings, consciousness, self-awareness, and greater understanding of the world around them are anthropomorphizing animals. I think vegetarians like you might do much of the same.

When I catch a fish and fry him up, I don't think he is contemplating the end of his existence as he heads for the pan.

-Rational Ag

DRFseven

No, Brighid; you are wrong. Anyone who gets the proper nutrients and, at the same time, avoids the damaging effects caused by the metabolism of some of the nutrients can be healthy. Period. There is no superiority in meat. Vegetarians are not a threat to you; if you want to eat meat, go ahead; as you can see, no one has been able to present any moral reason for abstaining from meat. But in the U.S., where cardiac disease is the number one killer and nearly half the population (including a large and quickly rising number of children) is overweight, a great majority of people do have easy access to a totally healthy vegetarian diet, and this includes a plentious supply of essential fatty acids. The medical community is beginning to see the health potential in vegetarian diets and the old misconceptions are beginning to drop from the literature.

My husband is a 30-year vegetarian; I am not, so I can see the issue from both sides. I was a vegetarian for five years, and do you know why I started eating meat again? Because I like it! I don't eat much meat because heart disease, hypertension, adult-onset diabetes, and high cholesterol run in my family, but I do eat it. And I don't try to say I eat it because of health; I admit it's because I like the taste.

brighid

If I tried red meat raw– that means I actually had to put it in my mouth, chew it and swallow it! As I said – very tender but I PREFER it seared, but quite bloody and rare.

I misspoke on the folate - got rushed and didn’t proof read everything – my mistake (slaps forehead). Sometimes things poor out of my brain and get typed on the page faster then they should.

And you are missing a point that I have made OVER and over again – a NATURALLY occurring vegetarian diet cannot sustain health and B12 cannot be found in ANY non-animal, natural food source. It can be made in a lab and added to a vegetarian diet, but it will still not be as efficiently used by the body as the B12 found in animal food sources. Therefore, we are not naturally designed to eat like a vegetarian OR nature would have put B-12 into vegetables. Please show me the naturally occurring non-animal/vegetable food?

And absorption is imperative to optimal health! If you are only getting 10% (at the most and 0-1% at the least) of the essential nutrients and I am getting 20% or better is a significant difference in the overall performance and fitness of ones body. Sorry dude (or dudette) but I am putting my money where I am going to get a higher return. And when it comes to iron, and all those other things I have delineated vegetables aren’t processed by the human body as efficiently even though they are rich in some, but not all of those nutrients. And if my brain is being fed more nutrients because they are being absorbed into my blood stream more quickly and readily you better bet that my brain is gonna work better. And if my red blood cells are getting more of the things they need to grow, and regenerate guess what – 20% versus less then 10% is huge, especially if you are one of the vegetarians that is absorbing about 1% and I am absorbing 23%!

(and yes, natural selection does sometimes produce things that aren’t optimal or even poor design, but evolution will eventually work that all out. But no matter how smart I am, I can’t escape the reality of human progress in the evolutionary chain of life, even when I can trick it.)

And the overall health and fitness of the human body is a principle to be considered when making ethical choices. It is better for my body if I am fed animal protein that is grown from free range grasses, that isn’t pumped with antibiotics and kept in clean living conditions. It is also better for the animals and what’s better for the animals I eat is better for my body when I consume their flesh. It is better to support local organic growers who don’t use chemical herbicides, pesticides or irradiate their foods because it’s better for the environment and what’s better for the environment is better for the growth of my body. Preserving natural habitats, limiting emissions, recycling and all that is good for my body because it exposes my body to fewer toxins. And without a healthy body the mind may not work very well, and if my body is dead, well my mind is worthless too. Survival and health are imperative to ethics.

B

shamon

If you don’t prefer to eat meat RAW or feed your children raw meat, then why considering you said it was the healthiest way to eat meat (b/c of taste and the amount of nutrients lost in the cooking process)?

Why don’t you just occasionally eat fish or eggs? If B12 is so important and you want to limit suffering then just eat fish or eggs. We can eat them raw. This doesn’t require death. You may be able to consistently prove that we’re naturally macrobiotic (vegetarian with non-mammalian fish) but not that we should eat meat.

This is an exaggeration. You won’t get the higher number (23%) and I don’t get the lower number (1%) of your estimate. IF I can only absorb half as much as you claim I can still just eat two portions of vegetarian foods instead.

When has natural selection selected for something disadvantageous? If your mind tells you that there is progress then why deny it? Why do you deny your own thoughts? You are smart enough, you’re just denying your own intuition.

Vegetarianism will not result in death.

Rational Ag

But it will result in terribly bland food.

-Rational Ag

brighid

DRFSeven, I am afraid not. I, personally, as delineated in many other posts require meat for medical reasons – specifically food allergies, etc. I cannot get the adequate nutrients from a strictly vegetarian diet and supplementation does not combat my medical situation AS effectively as getting the same amino acids from a whole food source. Lean animal protein is a superior protein to vegetable protein for the human body, and although SOME people can live adequately healthy lives on a vegetarian diet ALONG with proper supplementation – I CANNOT! Furthermore, without the addition of proper supplementation NO ONE can lead a healthy life on a strictly vegetarian diet! There are many men and women who have situations worse then mine who cannot get the proper nutritional values from a naturally occurring vegetarian diet. And please, don’t misinterpret my argument as a personal attack against vegetarians. It is an attack of the argument that ALL humans can live adequately healthy lives on a vegetarian diet and therefore we can and SHOULD eliminate the harvesting of non-human animals for nutrient sources. I really wish my body was more cooperative, but it’s not. I really wish that I didn’t have some of the medical limitations I have or that pregnancy was easy for me and I could get all the things I need from plant sources and scientifically manufactured supplements alone. I CANNOT. Hence, if some segments of the human population cannot biologically sustain health, or if illnesses can be helped or eliminated by the induction of proper nutrition (including ALL meat sources, not just the ones people think are cute like cows and pigs) then it cannot be factually stated that ALL animal products consumption CAN or SHOULD be eliminated.

If eating meat helps eliminate the very severe pain I suffer from, prevents invasive and potentially life threatening surgery, protect my fertility, etc and it is denied me because of the prohibition of eating animals or animal products, this rule would be perpetuating yet another unethical situation.

I am also a strong proponent of optimal health, not minimal health. And no one has presented a valid and factual argument that a strictly vegetarian diet, including the use of supplements will provide ANY human with OPTIMAL health. Just because one isn’t withering away from a vegetarian diet, does not in fact mean a) this person is indeed healthy or b)this person won’t develop diseases or symptoms due to deficiencies in certain things or c)has optimal health.

I believe this is the only life I have to live. I would like to make it last a very, very long time. Therefore, I do not take my health for granted. Proper nutrition is essential to longevity and because of this it is a major concern of mine and a primary focus in my every day life. Nor do I wish to live this life in mediocrity and because of my specific (yet not uncommon) health limitations I need to modify my diet accordingly so I may be as healthy as possible. This does not guarantee that I won’t develop cancer, etc. but hopefully it will minimize my chances.

As I have said many times before – it’s great if one can be healthy and be a vegetarian. BUT vegetarianism cannot be set up as a universal imperative because it is not realistic for the majority of the world’s populations. So, if you live in a community that supports this life style and you can afford to purchase the necessary supplements, etc. GOOD FOR YOU! But vegetarians MUST realize that their position is not superior or even possible for ALL people. And we should all seek to minimize the damage we do to the environment and every living thing that we share this Earth with, but we cannot escape the reality of our bodies!

B