Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Primal · 11-21-2002, 04:42 PM

Actually Theravada Buddhists believe only monks and such have the time to reach Nirvana, what you are preaching is BS. Quite trying to disguise a religion as secularist. Xians do the same thing all the time, the claim "but my religion isn't", is not new.

Answerer · 11-21-2002, 05:27 PM

Well, there are Theravada Buddhists in my country, I don't recall hearing them mentioning anything about the 'special privileges' of monks.

monkey mind · 11-21-2002, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Primal:
Actually Theravada Buddhists believe only monks and such have the time to reach Nirvana, what you are preaching is BS. Quite trying to disguise a religion as secularist. Xians do the same thing all the time, the claim "but my religion isn't", is not new.

PLease provide evidence of this. I attend a Theravadan temple, and I am somewhat familar with the teachings, so I'm sure I'll be able to follow you.

I'm not trying to disguise Buddhism as secularist. You said that Theravadan Buddhism teaches that only monks can reach nirvana and I am disagreeing with you. I challenge you to back up your claim, or keep your mouth shut.

Primal · 11-22-2002, 02:01 AM

Quote:

The Theravada school of Buddhism is the oldest and most orthodox segment of the Buddhist population. Unlike Mahayana Buddhists, the Theravada school maintains that enlightenment is reserved for a select group of religious figures and scholars. Borrowing heavily from the Hindu caste system, Theravada monks believe that the status that a person is born to is highly indicative of the state of that person's soul. Therefore it would be impossible for anyone other than an monk to even get close to enlightenment.

<a href="http://asiarecipe.com/theravada.html" target="_blank">http://asiarecipe.com/theravada.html</a>

Quote:

Theravada is the oldest and is called "The Way of the Elders" because it represents the tradition of the earliest followers of the Buddha which were monks. Theravada buddhists believe that there was and is and will be only one Buddha, that the historical Gautama. They also believe that only monks can achieve Nirvana in this life and thus become arhat, holy persons. As holy people, monks and nuns can transfer good karma (or punya) to regular lay people as well as to the dead.

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/la/mysterion/budint.html" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/la/mysterion/budint.html</a>

Quote:

Hinayana means "the doctrine of the lesser way," referring to the belief that, for all intents and purposes, only a fortunate few lifelong monks can find nirvana by absolutely following the way to Buddha. Since the term "lesser way" was a derogatory name given by critics, proponents of this path later changed the name to Theravada Buddhism ("way of the elders"). The best that laypeople can hope for in Theravada Buddhism is to rise to a higher level when reborn in their next life so they may become monks. The Theravada branch of Buddhism has become very wealthy through gifts of land and money for monasteries and is dominant today in Sri Lanka, Thailand, Laos and Kampuchea.'

<a href="http://www.refuge-outreach.org/religions/buddhism.htm" target="_blank">http://www.refuge-outreach.org/religions/buddhism.htm</a>

Now perhaps you may kindly take your own advice and shut your mouth instead of being so presumptuous and firing off false dillemas.

monkey mind · 11-22-2002, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Primal:


<a href="http://www.refuge-outreach.org/religions/buddhism.htm" target="_blank">http://www.refuge-outreach.org/religions/buddhism.htm</a>

Now perhaps you may kindly take your own advice and shut your mouth instead of being so presumptuous and firing off false dillemas.

I apologize. You are indeed free to have your own opinion. What I meant by the shut your mouth comment was simply that if you wish to share your opinion in a public forum, you should back it up. If you do not wish to do so, then it would probably be best to keep it to yourself. Of course, your free to share any opinion you like founded or unfounded, it would be better if it was founded.

I would argue that the sources you quoted about Buddhism are highly inaccurate. I would go through them point by point, but someone else was kind enough to do that already.

I think there was also some misunderstanding at the beginning of our conversation. I was never interested in the debate about whether Buddhism should be called a religion or not. My posts were about meditation and my opinion of it's relevence for Buddhists and non-Buddhists.

[ Message edited for civility]
[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: monkey mind ]

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: monkey mind ]

lugotorix · 11-22-2002, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Primal:


quote:
Borrowing heavily from the Hindu caste system, Theravada monks believe that the status that a person is born to is highly indicative of the state of that person's soul. Therefore it would be impossible for anyone other than an monk to even get close to enlightenment.

<a href="http://asiarecipe.com/theravada.html" target="_blank">http://asiarecipe.com/theravada.html</a>

This is absolute bullshit. The Buddha himself welcomed people from all castes. And since the Theravada tradition does not exist in India (it is from older school named the Sthaviravadins who sent missionaries to Sri Lanka and Southeast Asia), they don't even have contact with the Hindu caste system.

Quote:

quote:
Theravada is the oldest and is called "The Way of the Elders" because it represents the tradition of the earliest followers of the Buddha which were monks. Theravada buddhists believe that there was and is and will be only one Buddha, that the historical Gautama. They also believe that only monks can achieve Nirvana in this life and thus become arhat, holy persons. As holy people, monks and nuns can transfer good karma (or punya) to regular lay people as well as to the dead.

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/la/mysterion/budint.html" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/la/mysterion/budint.html</a>

This is incorrect. Theravadins believe that there are many Buddhas, the previous one being named Dipankara and the next one Mettaya (Maitreya in Sanskrit). They believe that each Buddha rediscovers the teaching after it has become lost. They also teach that laypeople can become enlightened (although after doing so they should become monks...). And finally, the monks don't transfer any karma. It is a basic teaching of Theravada Buddhism that "even Buddhas can only point the way", that no one can complete any part of the path for anyone else. The monks are actually a "field of merit", whereby laypeople who help support them can generate their own good karmic merit.

Quote:

Hinayana means "the doctrine of the lesser way," referring to the belief that, for all intents and purposes, only a fortunate few lifelong monks can find nirvana by absolutely following the way to Buddha. Since the term "lesser way" was a derogatory name given by critics, proponents of this path later changed the name to Theravada Buddhism ("way of the elders"). The best that laypeople can hope for in Theravada Buddhism is to rise to a higher level when reborn in their next life so they may become monks. The Theravada branch of Buddhism has become very wealthy through gifts of land and money for monasteries and is dominant today in Sri Lanka, Thailand, Laos and Kampuchea.'

<a href="http://www.refuge-outreach.org/religions/buddhism.htm" target="_blank">http://www.refuge-outreach.org/religions/buddhism.htm</a>

That link is a link to a Christian apologetic site. It is NOT a good source of unbiased information on Buddhism. The quote is so full of misinformation and just plain lies that I don't know where to start. If this is where you are getting your information about Buddhism, you need to find other sources.

Buddhist scholars don't agreee that Hinayana even refers to Theravada Buddhism. It was more than likely a straw man invented by Mahayana writers to distinguish themselves from the 18 different early Buddhist sects in India.

Of the three sources you are quoting from, one is a travel site, one is a New-age "all religions are one" type of site, and the other is a Christian "all other religions are from the Devil" type of site. You really need to get some better sources of information about Buddhism.

Just in case you are interested in learning what Buddhism is acutally about firsthand (from its scriptures), here are some good online starting points:

<a href="http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/sutras.htm" target="_blank">Buddhanet Sutra links</a>
<a href="http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/sutras.html" target="_blank">Buddhist Sutras at SFSU</a>
<a href="http://home.att.net/~edwardchang/sutraindex/english.htm" target="_blank">Lots of Buddhist Sutras online</a>

Please take the time to read some primary sources, instead of the biased stuff you quoted here.

lugotorix

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: lugotorix ]

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: lugotorix ]

Grizzly · 11-22-2002, 07:05 AM

monkey mind and primal,

Let's try to keep the discussion civil. Disagreeing is fine, but there is no need to tell each other to "shut your mouth". This is a philosophical forum, not a basketball court. Argue points, don't attack each other.

Grizzly
Moderator

monkey mind · 11-22-2002, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly:
monkey mind and primal,

Let's try to keep the discussion civil. Disagreeing is fine, but there is no need to tell each other to "shut your mouth". This is a philosophical forum, not a basketball court. Argue points, don't attack each other.

Grizzly
Moderator

I apologize.

Primal:

I'm sorry I came off strong, but I feel that if your going to tell me what Buddhists believe, you should back up your claim with either evidence or a line of reasoning. I feel strongly about this because while you are free to make whatever judgements you like about Buddhism, you are making criticisms in a public forum.

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: monkey mind ]

andy_d · 11-22-2002, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie:

I think that is my problem. I try to clear my mind and I just can't seem to be able to do that...

I meditate. The best advice i've heard is to treat your thoughts as "a thief in an empty house"

That means don't give them any energy (which includes trying to stamp them out!) If you just relax and give nothing to the thought it might just leave of it's own accord.

But hey, nobody said it was easy!

11-22-2002, 03:31 PM

"Actually Theravada Buddhists believe only monks and such have the time to reach Nirvana, what you are preaching is BS. Quite trying to disguise a religion as secularist. Xians do the same thing all the time, the claim "but my religion isn't", is not new. "

My reply : Guys, calm down. Primal, I think I can clear this up with a question. If Gautama Buddha thought that only a specific group of people can achieve Nirwana, then he couldn't have venture out and accept ALL the people who came to him to hear what he had to say, right?

Thervade is only ONE of a few sects. Take Zen Buddhism for example, it is strictly followed by Warriors and Warrior Monks in Japan in fuedal times where it promote mental development through practise of martial arts. It doesn't mean Buddha said OK to kill another person, right?

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11-21-2002, 04:42 PM	#61
Primal Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Marcos Posts: 551	Actually Theravada Buddhists believe only monks and such have the time to reach Nirvana, what you are preaching is BS. Quite trying to disguise a religion as secularist. Xians do the same thing all the time, the claim "but my religion isn't", is not new.

11-21-2002, 05:27 PM	#62
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Well, there are Theravada Buddhists in my country, I don't recall hearing them mentioning anything about the 'special privileges' of monks.

11-22-2002, 07:05 AM	#67
Grizzly Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 2,936	monkey mind and primal, Let's try to keep the discussion civil. Disagreeing is fine, but there is no need to tell each other to "shut your mouth". This is a philosophical forum, not a basketball court. Argue points, don't attack each other. Grizzly Moderator

11-22-2002, 03:31 PM	#70
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"Actually Theravada Buddhists believe only monks and such have the time to reach Nirvana, what you are preaching is BS. Quite trying to disguise a religion as secularist. Xians do the same thing all the time, the claim "but my religion isn't", is not new. " My reply : Guys, calm down. Primal, I think I can clear this up with a question. If Gautama Buddha thought that only a specific group of people can achieve Nirwana, then he couldn't have venture out and accept ALL the people who came to him to hear what he had to say, right? Thervade is only ONE of a few sects. Take Zen Buddhism for example, it is strictly followed by Warriors and Warrior Monks in Japan in fuedal times where it promote mental development through practise of martial arts. It doesn't mean Buddha said OK to kill another person, right?

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