Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sensate · 10-25-2002, 04:21 PM

Well, I used to be a Christian so I guess i can just ask myself.

HoosierGuy28 · 10-25-2002, 05:54 PM

Starboy,

Quote:

Given these events there are at least two explanations:

1. The Christian supernatural explanation
2. The rational explanation that Jesus didn't die on the cross. He had accomplices that knew this, removed him from the tomb and revived and nursed him to health.

Quote:

If examining your beliefs in a critical fashion why would you consider the first explanation at all? If you do accept the first explanation, then do you accept all supernatural explanations of events both past and present? If not then why not?

I'll be fair. Lets examine this together.

1. The Christian supernatural explanation

First, the type of wounds. (We will look for the presence of all 5 classified by surgeons today)

1. A contused wound (Matthew 27:30 - smote with a reed)
2. A lacerated wound ( Matthew 27:26 - scourging and lacerated back)
3. A penetrating wound (Matthew 27:29 - crown of thorns)
4. A perforating wound (John 20:24-29 - pierced hands and feet)

So far, we have 4 of the 5 types of wounds that Christ experienced. And now for the clincher.

5. An incised wound.

Quote:

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

This blood and water would pretty much guarantee that the heart had been pierced. Once the pericardium fluid is released, then it's a rather safe assumption that the victim is going to die.

Now, evidence concerning the Roman Government archives concerning the death.

Quote:

Tertullian,
"At the same time at noonday there was a great darkness. They thought it to be an eclipse, who did not know that it was also foretold concerning Christ. And some have denied it, not knowing the cause of such a darkness. And yet you have that remarkable event recorded in your archives...And yet, nailed upon the cross, He exhibited many notable signs, by which his death was distinquished from all others. At His own free-will, He with a word dismissed from Him His spirit, anticipating the executioners work. In the same hour, too, the light of day was withdrawn, when the sun at the very time was in his meridian blaze. Those who were not aware that this had been predicted about Christ, no doubt thought it an eclipse. You yourselves have the account of the world-portent still in your archives." (Tertullian, Apology, trans. Ante-Nicene Library, 10 vols.(Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.,1987) vol.3, XXI)

Do you really think Tertullian would've dared question the Roman Government if it hadn't been recorded in their archives? These events are also recorded by other historians and writers, but I'm not going to type out all the accounts, that would take too long.

Also, note that the darkness was also mentioned, and this is also confirmed by several historians as well (Thallus & Phlegon).

Quote:

Matthew 27:45
Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. (This is noon until 3 p.m. in our time)

Amos 8:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

Amos 8:10
And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only [son], and the end thereof as a bitter day. (Approximate time of this prophecy was 750 B.C., which was almost 800 years prior to the event occurring, and an eclipse can be ruled out because it would've been impossible to occur at that time of year)

Now, this you can take my word for, or you can research it for yourself, but in Eastern burials, bodies were tightly wrapped with linen strips about a foot wide. There were also spices and gum substances that were used to hold everything together.

Quote:

Luke 24:12
Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.

Quote:

John 19:39
And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound [weight].

John 19:40
Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

Furthermore, all 12 apostles (subtracting Judas and adding Matthias) along with Stephen and Paul are recorded as having experienced martyrdoms for this fact. Why would they have willingly died for this if Christ had not been resurrected?

Furthermore, I would say it would be safe to assume that the Romans were rather good at killing people and their government was rather strict. For instance, even if a prisoner escaped, the guard who let the prisoner escape would be subject to the same sentence that the escaped prisoner faced, or they would be put to death.

Furthermore, many skeptics who have actually researched the evidence have actually changed their mind and accepted Christianity. Two famous skeptics, Simon Greenleaf and Frank Morrison, were both legal experts who changed their mind about Christianity while looking at the evidence. Franks Morrison was actually planning to write a book to discredit Christianity, and after reviewing the evidence; he went on to write "Who Moved the Stone".

2. The rational explanation that Jesus didn't die on the cross. He had accomplices that knew this, removed him from the tomb and revived and nursed him to health.

I'll let you fill in your support for this explanation, but I also have several questions.

How did the accomplices move the two-ton stone without the guards noticing?

If the guards were aware and just overtaken, then they would've been able to identify whoever it was who stole the body, so where are the records of this, who was it that stole the body, and where are the records of execution for these criminals?

Why would someone intentionally steal the body? They would've had to have had a death wish.

I would suggest that if there was any evidence of this whatsoever, The Romans would've certainly exposed the Christians as being frauds.

Would you will be willing to bet your eternal soul that I am wrong?

I'll be looking forward to your response.

Joel

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: HoosierGuy28 ]</p>

jdawg2 · 10-25-2002, 07:25 PM

I guess I'll repost mines one more time

If God required the murder of his son/himself in order to "forgive" us, why is this considered loving, especially when omnipotent gods have tons of other, less cruel possiblities?

And do you consider punishing innocent people for the crimes of others to be justice? Once again, especially if we're talking about an omnipotent god?

K · 10-25-2002, 09:16 PM

Joel:

Quote:

I could, but I choose not to.

Ah, but you really had no choice. You couldn't possibly have chosen otherwise. I could ask you for a demonstration a million more times and a million times you would have no choice but to decline. The illusion of choice isn't choice.

Ronin · 10-25-2002, 11:41 PM

You can't always equivocate critical thinking to intellect. Sometimes it can be detrimental to intellect.

Only when promoting fairy tales as fact.

Ronin · 10-25-2002, 11:56 PM

Actually, that would be just the opposite. I choose to embrace reality and you cling to propaganda to tell you what to believe.

I merely don't believe.

Reality ~ something that is neither derivative nor dependent but exists necessarily.

Supernaturalism ~ of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe.

Fact ~ something that has actual existence.

Faith ~ firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

The difference here is I choose to think for myself and you choose to believe what skeptics tell you to believe.

I merely don't believe fairy tales are real.

Of course, I'm sure you will dispute this, but as all things, time will tell.

No better time than now.

Which fairy tales do you refute?

Why?

Bree · 10-26-2002, 07:38 AM

Hi HG - take a stab at this one, will ya?

Can you please explain God's actions towards Job? It seems that (if I'm reading the "correct" version of the Bible) that God and Satan got together and said "let's fuck with Job" - if that's true, and God is indeed showing us His capability to align Himself with the Devil, then can God ultimately be 100% good?

DigitalDruid · 10-26-2002, 09:13 AM

Joel, you wrote:

Quote:

I don't recall suggesting that I went on some quest for religious superiority.

Nor do I recall suggesting that you went on such a quest! You are ascribing to me something ludicrous which I never said and then shooting it down as a Straw man.. Here�s a suggestion. Please search my posts and find where I said or even implied that you went on a quest for religious superiority, and I�d apologize. If you can�t, you should apologize in this forum for false attribution. Are you game?

What I did mention was that your study was comparative study. Because the stated outcome of the study was the superiority of Christianity, you must have compared the religions. So it was a comparative study. Did I ever say you started out with an assumption of Christianity�s superiority as you say here? No.

Further, I said your comparative study has serious limitations because (among other factors) you did not include some religions (an indeterminate number since you have not specified how many exactly) in you comparative study. Yet on the basis of that study you concluded that Christianity is superior to all religions which led to your acceptance of Christianity!!!

If your study was complete and unbiased then all you can conclude is something like: "After studying, say, 3 religions, I am convinced Christianity is the superior one among these 3 religions." You can not rule out that some religion (out of a very many you did not study) is superior to Christianity because you simply did not examine them by your own admission in your post of Oct. 23:

Quote:

Have I studied the writings of every religion in the world? No�..

Now about your analogy for the study you performed: You wrote:
[QUOTE]If you have a brown paper sack and it is filled with 500 pennies and 1 nickel, and your intention is to find the nickel; you're going to reach into the bag and pull out pennies until you eventually find the nickel. Of course, once you find the nickel, there is no need to continue reaching your hand into the bag to pull out pennies. Once you have verfied that you have the nickel, you have accomplished your goal and have no reason to continue your search. There is no reason for you to exhaust every penny in the bag.[\QUOTE]

This analogy for your comparative study is inappropriate. For a comparative study, a correct analogy is that if you have some coins (=religions) of varying values in a bag, then by comparing them you can determine the coin with best value. YOU CAN NOT STOP before examining every coin. If you do so, then your conclusion (that some coin has the best value in the entire bag based on examination of only some of the coins) is flawed. Unfortunately in your comparative study you didn�t examine some of the coins by your own admission. Yet you concluded Christianity is superior to all other religions.

I have already posted my comments on your response to my "fig tree and freewill" problem. There I also included an "animals and freewill" problem. I am curious to know what you think about these too.

Regards.

[edited to fix formatting]

[ October 27, 2002: Message edited by: DigitalDruid ]</p>

HoosierGuy28 · 10-26-2002, 09:14 AM

Hey everybody. I have a lot to do this weekend, and I probably won't be back on here until Tuesday or Wednesday. I'll be looking forward to more of your questions. Hope you all have a great weekend. God Bless!

Joel

Philosoft · 10-26-2002, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HoosierGuy28:
<strong>

Actually, that would be just the opposite. I choose to embrace reality and you cling to propaganda to tell you what to believe. The difference here is I choose to think for myself and you choose to believe what skeptics tell you to believe.</strong>

This is truly surreal. Were your parents Christians, Joel? Do you go to church?

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10-25-2002, 04:21 PM	#241
sensate Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: midwest Posts: 438	Well, I used to be a Christian so I guess i can just ask myself.

10-25-2002, 07:25 PM	#243
jdawg2 Regular Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Cedar Hill, TX USA Posts: 113	I guess I'll repost mines one more time If God required the murder of his son/himself in order to "forgive" us, why is this considered loving, especially when omnipotent gods have tons of other, less cruel possiblities? And do you consider punishing innocent people for the crimes of others to be justice? Once again, especially if we're talking about an omnipotent god?

10-25-2002, 11:41 PM	#245
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	You can't always equivocate critical thinking to intellect. Sometimes it can be detrimental to intellect. Only when promoting fairy tales as fact.

10-25-2002, 11:56 PM	#246
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	Actually, that would be just the opposite. I choose to embrace reality and you cling to propaganda to tell you what to believe. I merely don't believe. Reality ~ something that is neither derivative nor dependent but exists necessarily. Supernaturalism ~ of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe. Fact ~ something that has actual existence. Faith ~ firm belief in something for which there is no proof. The difference here is I choose to think for myself and you choose to believe what skeptics tell you to believe. I merely don't believe fairy tales are real. Of course, I'm sure you will dispute this, but as all things, time will tell. No better time than now. Which fairy tales do you refute? Why?

10-26-2002, 07:38 AM	#247
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Hi HG - take a stab at this one, will ya? Can you please explain God's actions towards Job? It seems that (if I'm reading the "correct" version of the Bible) that God and Satan got together and said "let's fuck with Job" - if that's true, and God is indeed showing us His capability to align Himself with the Devil, then can God ultimately be 100% good?

10-26-2002, 09:14 AM	#249
HoosierGuy28 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana Posts: 69	Hey everybody. I have a lot to do this weekend, and I probably won't be back on here until Tuesday or Wednesday. I'll be looking forward to more of your questions. Hope you all have a great weekend. God Bless! Joel

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