Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bree · 08-01-2002, 12:21 PM

Zippy - you made one of the most poignant points ever! If you can choose to be gay then why aren't more people making the choice? According to GeoTheo, men can get more sex by being gay! And according to GeoTheo, all men want is sex! Therefore, all men should be gay!

I am still wondering why GeoTheo thinks the term "homosexual" only means "gay man" - the only examples he is providing for us to work off of is in regards to gay men. I wonder why that is?

A bigot is a bigot because their beliefs hurt other people. They keep people "down" in the sense that one party is "righteous" and the other is "sinful" based on a system of archaic ideals. Geo, you get mad because you think we are Christian-haters, when in fact we are merely questioning your moral code. You think this makes us bigots, when in fact very few people here at II could ever be classified as Christian-haters. You perceive us to hate you. However, when we say we feel you are intolerant of OUR moral code (simply because it does not jive with yours) you get angry.

Why?

Bree · 08-01-2002, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rbochnermd:


Religious intolerance justifies bigotry under a shroud of moral indignation and so promotes it.

Rick, have I ever told you how much you kick ass?

Princess of Peace · 08-01-2002, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Could that be because you are a religious bigot by any chace?

I would be suspicious of ANYONE who tried to pay all of my medical bills (except my husband or my insurance company). It wouldn't matter which church they went to or whether they went to church at all. I am distrustful of people who offer "free" gifts, especially when the dollar value is high. I look for the strings attached.

Talulah · 08-01-2002, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Let me start by saying that I am not one of these people that subscribes to the notion that all anti-gay bigots are themselves gay.

I sometimes wonder about this. My opinion is that there is something inside of them that makes people so fierce about telling homosexuals how wrong they are.

Four years ago I would search out forums to tell gay and lesbian people how evil they were. I didn't care about their souls, I just wanted to vent my moral outrage. You could probably venture a guess as to why I was so preoccupied with what 'homo's' did in their bedrooms. I would surmise that for some reason I was furious that they were doing what they wanted while I was making a 'sacrifice' for the sake of my soul. It just wasn't as obvious to me then as it is now.

Bree · 08-01-2002, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Talulah:


I didn't care about their souls, I just wanted to vent my moral outrage.

Whew, Talulah - I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought this way!!

Godless Sodomite · 08-01-2002, 12:28 PM

G,

Whether or not you would consider my marriage legitimate is of no interest to me in the slightest. The only issue that matters is whether or not I have the same rights that you do according to the government; I currently do not.

I despise KKKristianity, yet I can't imagine it would matter to you in the slightest what my opinions on religion are since there are no laws governing your practice of whichever superstitions you care to adopt. On the other hand, I cannot have a legal spouse in this country largely because the christers have decided that it's wrong for them to have a same-sex spouse so it must be wrong for me, too. Keep your hideous religion out of my affairs and I couldn't care less what you or anyone else has to say about my sexual orientation.

Whether my sexuality is a choice or not, it is my choice. Whether or not I enter into a monogamous relationship or a polyamorous one, that, too, is my business. My rights as a citizen are not contingent on whether or not my needs and desires match yours, or whether or not I am a nice person.

The issue of the homophobia and bigotry espoused by the various xian cults has nothing whatsoever to do with bestiality or pedophilia. I can see the difference between you establishing a relationship with a consenting adult woman, and you fucking a sheep. Why does devotion to an executed radical Jewish rabbi from two millennia ago disable you from seeing the same difference about me?

-Jerry

Talulah · 08-01-2002, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Whether my sexuality is a choice or not, it is my choice. Whether or not I enter into a monogamous relationship or a polyamorous one, that, too, is my business. My rights as a citizen are not contingent on whether or not my needs and desires match yours, or whether or not I am a nice person.

Good point, and THE point if I may be so bold as to say.

GeoTheo · 08-01-2002, 12:34 PM

Paul,
Roadkill makes me vomit.
But I would eat it if the only other choice was starving.
The first time I drank a half a bottle of vodka I vomited. Then afterwards for a while I even felt nauseous taking mouth wash. Later I drank again and did not vomit but caught a buzz.
Same with tobacco.
If you could get past the nausea, there is a part of homosexual sex that you would enjoy:
The orgasm.
There are several scenarios that can lower peoples inhibitions.
Also, do you do anything to reinforce your feeling of revulsion towards homosexuality? I have observed people that seemed to be doing this.
They would shudder and describe men with big sweaty hairy asses, and shudder some more and say
"How could anyone want to screw that!"
Shuddering and showing revulsion toward homosexuality seemed to be a behavior prone to social conditioning.
Why did they not describe Guys you might see on People's 50 most beautiful people?
Would they shudder at that mental picture?
How about very feminine looking female impersonators with hormonally enhanced breasts?
Would that make you shudder?
How about the thought of anal sex with a woman?

Mageth · 08-01-2002, 12:42 PM

GeoTheo said:

I include homosexuality in my list of immoral sexual behaviors.
Prove that makes me a bigot because I have a list that is longer than yours.

My list:

Consenting, non-abusive relationships (i.e. relationships between consenting adults, whether heterosexual or homosexual) - not immoral. No harm is done to either partner. There is no victim.

Non-consenting and/or abusive relationships (e.g. pedophilia, beastiality, rape) - immoral. There is a victim; harm is done.

As far as I can tell, your list includes homosexuality as immoral merely because a couple of men said it was in a book written 2000+ years ago - the same men who condoned (or at least didn't condemn) slavery, the oppression of women, genocide (look what the OT Hebrews did to other peoples), and death sentences for prostitutes, adulterers, rape victims (in some cases), homosexuals, and rebellious children.

In my opinion, considering homosexuality immoral because Deuteronomy and Paul say it is, and based upon that passively or actively trying to prevent or restrict consenting adults from loving each other, marrying each other and generally enjoying a normal life together, is immoral (there are victims; harm is done).

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

Mageth · 08-01-2002, 12:49 PM

Let me start by saying that I am not one of these people that subscribes to the notion that all anti-gay bigots are themselves gay.

Whew, after GeoTheo's steamy last post, you might want to reconsider your position.

He seems to have put a lot of, umm, thought into the subject.

08-01-2002, 12:42 PM	#139
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	GeoTheo said: I include homosexuality in my list of immoral sexual behaviors. Prove that makes me a bigot because I have a list that is longer than yours. My list: Consenting, non-abusive relationships (i.e. relationships between consenting adults, whether heterosexual or homosexual) - not immoral. No harm is done to either partner. There is no victim. Non-consenting and/or abusive relationships (e.g. pedophilia, beastiality, rape) - immoral. There is a victim; harm is done. As far as I can tell, your list includes homosexuality as immoral merely because a couple of men said it was in a book written 2000+ years ago - the same men who condoned (or at least didn't condemn) slavery, the oppression of women, genocide (look what the OT Hebrews did to other peoples), and death sentences for prostitutes, adulterers, rape victims (in some cases), homosexuals, and rebellious children. In my opinion, considering homosexuality immoral because Deuteronomy and Paul say it is, and based upon that passively or actively trying to prevent or restrict consenting adults from loving each other, marrying each other and generally enjoying a normal life together, is immoral (there are victims; harm is done). [ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ] [ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

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08-01-2002, 12:21 PM	#131
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Zippy - you made one of the most poignant points ever! If you can choose to be gay then why aren't more people making the choice? According to GeoTheo, men can get more sex by being gay! And according to GeoTheo, all men want is sex! Therefore, all men should be gay! I am still wondering why GeoTheo thinks the term "homosexual" only means "gay man" - the only examples he is providing for us to work off of is in regards to gay men. I wonder why that is? A bigot is a bigot because their beliefs hurt other people. They keep people "down" in the sense that one party is "righteous" and the other is "sinful" based on a system of archaic ideals. Geo, you get mad because you think we are Christian-haters, when in fact we are merely questioning your moral code. You think this makes us bigots, when in fact very few people here at II could ever be classified as Christian-haters. You perceive us to hate you. However, when we say we feel you are intolerant of OUR moral code (simply because it does not jive with yours) you get angry. Why?

08-01-2002, 12:28 PM	#136
Godless Sodomite Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: New York Posts: 453	G, Whether or not you would consider my marriage legitimate is of no interest to me in the slightest. The only issue that matters is whether or not I have the same rights that you do according to the government; I currently do not. I despise KKKristianity, yet I can't imagine it would matter to you in the slightest what my opinions on religion are since there are no laws governing your practice of whichever superstitions you care to adopt. On the other hand, I cannot have a legal spouse in this country largely because the christers have decided that it's wrong for them to have a same-sex spouse so it must be wrong for me, too. Keep your hideous religion out of my affairs and I couldn't care less what you or anyone else has to say about my sexual orientation. Whether my sexuality is a choice or not, it is my choice. Whether or not I enter into a monogamous relationship or a polyamorous one, that, too, is my business. My rights as a citizen are not contingent on whether or not my needs and desires match yours, or whether or not I am a nice person. The issue of the homophobia and bigotry espoused by the various xian cults has nothing whatsoever to do with bestiality or pedophilia. I can see the difference between you establishing a relationship with a consenting adult woman, and you fucking a sheep. Why does devotion to an executed radical Jewish rabbi from two millennia ago disable you from seeing the same difference about me? -Jerry

08-01-2002, 12:34 PM	#138
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	Paul, Roadkill makes me vomit. But I would eat it if the only other choice was starving. The first time I drank a half a bottle of vodka I vomited. Then afterwards for a while I even felt nauseous taking mouth wash. Later I drank again and did not vomit but caught a buzz. Same with tobacco. If you could get past the nausea, there is a part of homosexual sex that you would enjoy: The orgasm. There are several scenarios that can lower peoples inhibitions. Also, do you do anything to reinforce your feeling of revulsion towards homosexuality? I have observed people that seemed to be doing this. They would shudder and describe men with big sweaty hairy asses, and shudder some more and say "How could anyone want to screw that!" Shuddering and showing revulsion toward homosexuality seemed to be a behavior prone to social conditioning. Why did they not describe Guys you might see on People's 50 most beautiful people? Would they shudder at that mental picture? How about very feminine looking female impersonators with hormonally enhanced breasts? Would that make you shudder? How about the thought of anal sex with a woman?

08-01-2002, 12:49 PM	#140
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Let me start by saying that I am not one of these people that subscribes to the notion that all anti-gay bigots are themselves gay. Whew, after GeoTheo's steamy last post, you might want to reconsider your position. He seems to have put a lot of, umm, thought into the subject.

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