Freethought & Rationalism Archive

AJ the greek · 04-02-2002, 03:54 PM

I think the US will change dramatically as my generation ages(gen-x), the most 'religious' in my experience are grandparents, then a straight-line decline through the younger ages.

What will it bring? I just know it wont be a bad thing, just different. Ever attend a mainline church and look at the age of the people?

thanks all for the replies.

aj

Seeker196 · 04-02-2002, 08:13 PM

"When parents withhold indoctrination from their small children, allowing them to "decide for themselves," the adults are almost guaranteeing that their youngsters will "decide" in the negative."

I wonder what that says, if a person deciding independantly for themselves 'almost guarantees' not choosing God...

"If parents want their children to have a meaningful faith, they must give up any misguided attempts at objectivity."

LOL what would be the freethinking version of this Orwellian twaddle?

Maybe..
'If parents want their children to avoid a misguided faith, they must encourage attempts at objectivity.'

Anyone else have a better, less Hitler-esque version?

Debbie T · 04-02-2002, 08:40 PM

Its no wonder Christians want prayer in public school. Reel them young impressionable minds in.

Koyaanisqatsi · 04-03-2002, 10:23 AM

I know others have already posted snippets, but I felt the whole conclusion should be duly noted:

Quote:

[T]here is also a critical period when certain kinds of instruction are easier in the life of children. Although humans have no instincts (only drives, reflexes, urges, etc.), there is a brief period during childhood when youngsters are vulnerable to religious training. Their concepts of right and wrong are formulated during this time, and their view of God begins to solidify. As in the case of the gosling, the opportunity of that period must be seized when it is available. Leaders of the Catholic church have been widely quoted as saying, "Give us a child until he is seven years old, and we'll have him for life"; they are usually correct, because permanent attitudes can be instilled during these seven vulnerable years.

Unfortunately, however, the opposite is also true. The absence or misapplication of instruction through the prime-time period may place a severe limitation on the depth of a child's later devotion to God. When parents withhold indoctrination from their small children, allowing them to "decide for themselves," the adults are almost guaranteeing that their youngsters will "decide" in the negative. If parents want their children to have a meaningful faith, they must give up any misguided attempts at objectivity. Children listen closely to discover just how much their parents believe what they preach. Any indecision or ethical confusion from the parent is likely to be magnified in the child.

After the middle-adolescent age (ending at about fifteen years), children sometimes resent heavy-handedness about anything—including what to believe. But if the early exposure has been properly conducted, they should have an anchor to steady them. Their early indoctrination, then, is the key to the spiritual attitudes they carry into adulthood.

This is, without question, one of the most terrifying things I've ever seen, as well as sweeping justification for all of the times I've ever used and been accused regarding the word "cult."

I think I should post this entire section as a personal signature!

Just unbelievably appalling.

DRFseven · 04-03-2002, 11:11 AM

Quote:

[T]here is also a critical period when certain kinds of instruction are easier in the life of children. Although humans have no instincts (only drives, reflexes, urges, etc.), there is a brief period during childhood when youngsters are vulnerable to religious training. Their concepts of right and wrong are formulated during this time, and their view of God begins to solidify.

This is very important in the determination of religious attitudes because it is during this time that moral acquisition occurs. Parents and other cultural forces introduce religious attitudes along with moral ones with the result that these religious attitudes then become moral attitudes and are almost impossible to lose. When attitudes are internalized, they become so ingrained they are commonly felt to be inborn and described by people as being "a part" of themselves. This is the way that people come to "just know" something is right or wrong.

james-2-24 · 04-03-2002, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Although humans have no instincts (only drives, reflexes, urges, etc.),

... the difference being ?

Koyaanisqatsi · 04-08-2002, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DRFseven:
<strong>

This is very important in the determination of religious attitudes because it is during this time that moral acquisition occurs. Parents and other cultural forces introduce religious attitudes along with moral ones with the result that these religious attitudes then become moral attitudes and are almost impossible to lose. When attitudes are internalized, they become so ingrained they are commonly felt to be inborn and described by people as being "a part" of themselves. This is the way that people come to "just know" something is right or wrong.</strong>

Right, it's called "cult indoctrination."

fromtheright · 04-08-2002, 06:37 AM

I'm not sure what side of the debate DRFSeven is on, but the point was well-stated.

OK, I know I'm wading into the piranhas

but here goes...

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ the Greek:

On this topic, I remember a Baptist missionary stating some statistic where if you're not saved by age 18, that there is very little chance of it happening later. Can't remember the numbers. A bunch of doubters of their all-powerful God.

Given free will, it's not an issue of God's capability, it is more due to the point that DRFSeven made:

Quote:

Quoted from the Dobson article:

After the middle-adolescent age (ending at about fifteen years), children sometimes resent heavy-handedness about anything—including what to believe.

Koyaanisqatsi, since you've labelled this cult indoctrination, please define cult. Or is any group that seeks to pass its values on to its children therefore a cult?

[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: fromtheright ]</p>

cricket · 04-08-2002, 06:42 AM

Teaching our children values is not the same as teaching them dogma and superstition.

AJ the greek · 04-12-2002, 03:09 PM

Guess I'll keep this thing alive

just got back from vacation, so I would have spoke up sooner.)

To From the Right:

My understanding of Eph2:8+ is that God does the saving. Are you saying it is all the culture and family that accomplish this? It does discount God to say mere humans hold such power and that age matters. I know that other interpretations exist on salvation.

Regardless, I find Dobson's comments striking. It does say you need to reach the young and under-educated, what does that tell us?

All of these questions were fundamental in my loss of religious faith, but that's just me. I am concerned about my young daughter now, so she will know about my doubt, my reasons for doubt, etc. She will never see me pray. Questions will be answered. I will not be in the closet in my own home. Hopefully I can at least balance the 'education' she recieves elsewhere. Dobson gives me much hope in this area.

What is a cult? That which cannot stand up to criticism, in my opinion. When the light of day causes followers to have to make a rational decision to stay or go, is another clue.

I wish church was more open to debate, maybe even hosting a legitimate debate and not one-sided evangelism. Not gonna get that most places outside a university classroom.(perhaps a UU 'church')

Anyway, thanks for responding from your perspective, all opinions are valuable for this forum. I hope you don't think I am piranha-ing your post.

aj

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04-02-2002, 03:54 PM	#11
AJ the greek Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: out there Posts: 140	I think the US will change dramatically as my generation ages(gen-x), the most 'religious' in my experience are grandparents, then a straight-line decline through the younger ages. What will it bring? I just know it wont be a bad thing, just different. Ever attend a mainline church and look at the age of the people? thanks all for the replies. aj

04-02-2002, 08:13 PM	#12
Seeker196 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 278	"When parents withhold indoctrination from their small children, allowing them to "decide for themselves," the adults are almost guaranteeing that their youngsters will "decide" in the negative." I wonder what that says, if a person deciding independantly for themselves 'almost guarantees' not choosing God... "If parents want their children to have a meaningful faith, they must give up any misguided attempts at objectivity." LOL what would be the freethinking version of this Orwellian twaddle? Maybe.. 'If parents want their children to avoid a misguided faith, they must encourage attempts at objectivity.' Anyone else have a better, less Hitler-esque version?

04-02-2002, 08:40 PM	#13
Debbie T Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Washington the state Posts: 406	Its no wonder Christians want prayer in public school. Reel them young impressionable minds in.

04-08-2002, 06:42 AM	#19
cricket Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: St Louis MO USA Posts: 1,188	Teaching our children values is not the same as teaching them dogma and superstition.

04-12-2002, 03:09 PM	#20
AJ the greek Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: out there Posts: 140	Guess I'll keep this thing alive just got back from vacation, so I would have spoke up sooner.) To From the Right: My understanding of Eph2:8+ is that God does the saving. Are you saying it is all the culture and family that accomplish this? It does discount God to say mere humans hold such power and that age matters. I know that other interpretations exist on salvation. Regardless, I find Dobson's comments striking. It does say you need to reach the young and under-educated, what does that tell us? All of these questions were fundamental in my loss of religious faith, but that's just me. I am concerned about my young daughter now, so she will know about my doubt, my reasons for doubt, etc. She will never see me pray. Questions will be answered. I will not be in the closet in my own home. Hopefully I can at least balance the 'education' she recieves elsewhere. Dobson gives me much hope in this area. What is a cult? That which cannot stand up to criticism, in my opinion. When the light of day causes followers to have to make a rational decision to stay or go, is another clue. I wish church was more open to debate, maybe even hosting a legitimate debate and not one-sided evangelism. Not gonna get that most places outside a university classroom.(perhaps a UU 'church') Anyway, thanks for responding from your perspective, all opinions are valuable for this forum. I hope you don't think I am piranha-ing your post. aj

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