JGL53

Yeah, our ancesters certainly 'opened a can of worms' when they out-lawed slavery.

What the fuck WERE they thinking?

excreationist

BDS:
Parents would do it based on evidence that the child broke some rule. Police sometimes arrest drunk people for a few hours, etc, without having a formal trial I think.

BDS

Well, of course, JGL and excreationist.

The point is,what's the difference between imprisonment and assault that would make spanking unacceptable, but "time outs" acceptable?

JGL53

Please.

excreationist - why bother to even refute one of the many false analogies posted by BDS? Even if you took the time and effort to refute ALL of them, what would be the point? I feel quite confident BDS could produce another onslaught of inane and irrelevant evasions and off the point questions to avoid the issue - that initiating physical attacks on children is morally indefensible. Period.

I'm giving it up here. I think I'll go over to an abortion debate thread and try to convince all the anti-abortion rights people that an human embryo is not a person. (How ya think that will go?)

BDS

Whatever, JGL. But why write "period" and then put the same put the punctuation mark after it. Isn't that redundant?

The redundancy hardly qualifies as an argument, does it?

excreationist

The police imprison people as a punishment (and also to keep drunks from making trouble) - they don't hit people as a punishment. Or at least officially, they're not meant to.

JGL53:
Don't worry, I'm not going to try and refute everything BDS is saying.

Donnmathan

JGL53 said:
This is as hard a question as asking a president when war becomes necessary, and for the same reasons. First, it depends on the target - some children, like some countries, do not respond in the manner you wish to the application of violence. Any responsible parent should tailor punishments to those that suit the child, and NOT use those that don't. I, for example, never responded well to the 'time-out', though that's not what my mother called it at that time. I am an introvert and a dreamer by nature, and therefore the idea of spending a period of time alone with my thoughts gave me no trouble, other than the resentment towards my parents for deciding the 'when'. Likewise, in some cases it is appropriate to spank even a child that doesn't normally respond well to it, because of the sheer shock value - 'Man, I must have REALLY screwed up if mom actually spanked me!'

Further:
Glad to hear it worked for him! However, must I point out that that was ONE very specific case, while I could mention that spanking was a very widely accepted form of discipline for a long time, and the whole population that was raised with it are not criminals (not even a large minority)? I am mortally certain that if we looked at real statistics (I don't think there are any, as yet, but if there were), the rate of criminal behavior among those who weren't spanked and those who were (not beaten, spanked) would be about the same.

JGL53:
I don't see how your point is proved by one isolated example, or even a handfull of examples, so long as there are entire groups of people who still spank their children and do not raise criminals. My entire extended family was raised with spanking as a punishment, for at least four generations that I know of, and the worst behavior that has surfaced thus far is one uncle who is slowly drinking himself to death. By your statement, this should be just as much proof that ANYONE and EVERYONE could learn to use spanking as an effective punishment, and should be expected to do so!

JGL53:
Genetic inferiority? Where and how did genetics get mixed up in this?? We are talking about learned behaviors and the methods used to teach them, not genetics!

JGL53:
Ah, the matter of control; how to stop things from crossing that boundry into too much. So allow me to ask you this: what is the real standard applied to, say, time outs? Is there a list I can get somewhere, that shows the list of transgressions and the length of time that will always work, for any and every child, for each one? Anyone who approaches this logically will laugh the idea of such a list off as an absurdity, and rightly so. It doesn't, and at this stage of our understanding of psychology, CANNOT, exist! Each parent must determine the appropriate length of the time out, based on their child and the transgression; the sliding scale is used once more.

Time-outs, too, can be taken too far, and become something else, though no one has ever drawn the parallel in the media - imprisonment. Granted, the parent that locks their child in a closet for 6 hours (or 6 days!) at a time is no more calling it a time-out than those who beat their child until they bruise call it a spanking. That doesn't change the fact that they are both cases of rational forms of punishment taken to an irrational and dangerous extreme.

JGL53:
First, I do congratulate my parents - what they did was not easy, especially considering what I was like back then. Second, I would like to see the statistics you use to back up that particular fact, though I will always think that even one that takes things too far is enough! However, let me state this: there will ALWAYS be people who take things too far. If spanking is made illegal, then parents who beat their children can be jailed - well, they can be jailed already if they truely BEAT their children, and that is as it should be. However, if spanking becomes illegal, then those same parents, who do not have the self control to stop at punishment, will be the same ones who will either beat the children anyway and hide it, or lock the child in a closet for 12 hours without food or water. The problem is not the punishment, the problem is that some people just should not become parents!

JGL53:
Does it always apply that the reverse is true? That everything that grandpa had MUST be bad, and therefore replaced? I agree, that progress must be made in the way we interact with children, but the quasi-pseudo-science that is 'child psychology' has a long way to go before it can offer up any solid findings. How about a universal model for human behavior? Until we have one that is really universal, and can predict a small range of behaviors given a certain set of input, then we have no basis to make sweeping statements like "spanking never works and should be illegal."

The ball is in your court, JGL - "You may fire when ready!"

excreationist

Donnmathan:
You said your entire extended family was raised with spanking, so I'm guessing you were spanked too. You said you felt resentment towards your parents for deciding "when" you'd be alone with your thoughts - what about when they spanked you? Did you resent them for that? If not, I don't really get why you resent them for one thing, which apparently you don't find to be much of a punishment (time-out), yet not resent them for less enjoyable punishment (spanking).

Maybe the reason why you were surprised when your mum spanked you is because that is her last resort and usually you just get time-out. BTW, there are apparently other techniques besides time-out and spanking. e.g. If you're old enough to daydream, you should be old enough to scrub floors and clean toilets, etc. (not sure what the expects say about that)

Donnmathan

excreationist:
Perhaps I wasn't clear - I didn't view a time-out as a punishment, no matter what my mother's intention was. It was something I did of my own choice on numerous occasions, and therefore I viewed a time-out as something that was inconvenient, but easy to tolerate. This made it wholly ineffective as a form of punishment, and gave me a class of behaviors that I knew I could get away with - "Well, all that will happen is a time-out, so why not do (insert bad-boy-stunt here)." Resent was the wrong word - irritation and contempt come closer, the very same emotions that are expressed by willing criminals towards jail time.

Spanking, while it did breed some short-term resentment (more that she had the gall to catch me than anything else), was a painful, pointedly embarassing experience, and one I wished to avoid by any means available. As my mother learned which punishments I felt this way about, the others stopped being used, and spanking and (as you pointed out) extra chores became her consiquences of choice. Rational, logical parenting at work, IMHO.

Actually, lol, ususally I got extra chores - the spanking wasn't used so infrequently as to be that much of a shock, I just learned where she drew the line between the two. My parents were experimenters (mom is a teacher, so deals with children constently), and tried each new form of punishment as the 'experts' came up with it. For me, the old 'spanking and chores' bit worked the best. By-the-by, I hadn't ment to exclude the other forms of punishment, merely grabbed the two that seemed to be the most central to the previous posts on this thread.

JGL - you asked for an instance when spanking was the most appropriate punishment. Best example I can think of off the top of my head is a child throwing a tantrum in a store because they don't want to be there (not at all uncommon). Threatening a time-out is futile; it can't happen in the store, and waiting until you are at home divorces the punishment from the cause so much as to render it ineffective. Rushing home to deliver the time-out is not a viable option, as it gives the child exactly what (s)he wants, to be done with the shopping trip. The same arguements apply to chores. If there is some future treat pending, then the threat to withdraw it is a possibility, but not always available, and manufacturing one on the spot (We'll get ice cream if you start behaving!) is rewarding bad behavior. A swift swat on the seat, or perhaps (as my wife as done to startling effectiveness on a few occasions) mimicing the behavior in a way that stresses it's ridiculousness (something most won't do in public), are about the only means of punishment available, and the latter won't work if the child is too old and understands the ploy - they'll just change their approach.

dk

Not exactly. The personalities of children aren't nearly as monolithic as many experts evangelize. So there will always be some flux as to the best method of discipline. But that said, different methods of punishment have advantages. For example, spanking has the advantage of being quick. As a kid I personally preferred to be spanked, except on the very rare occasion I lied, stole or, heaven forbid hit one of by childhood tormentors back, my little sisters (no 2 son of 7). Timeout has the advantage of giving mom and/or dad a needed break from the pandemonium. Deprivation (like no TV) also has an advantage, it links behavior to longer term consequences… so forth and so on. Depending on the child, the parent and crime there is a "Best Punishment", but I suspect in practice experts (under any cloak) have an easier job than parents.

My point was that whatever method of punishment a parent employs, the object is for the kid to learn to discipline themselves and aquire good habits (virtue) essential to a good and happy life.

By the way, nobody has mentioned this but a large family verses a small family changes the dynamics completely. In a large family kids discipline one another to a large extent, and parents simply haven't the physical ability to become a referee.