Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rfwu · 04-01-2003, 10:21 PM

jmborr, I did not write the analysis of that passage. I merely directed you to an analysis of a website (www.religioustolerance.com) that I simply agreed with. I hope that I did not commit plaigerism or something.

jmborr · 04-02-2003, 08:36 AM

are you Pro-choice?
Yes.

And your explanation is extrabiblical, obviously. Yet you jab at the OP with "You do not understand the passage."
Sometimes I abuse of the Holy Spirit. But this is something you lack, so I am in better terms than you to interpret the Bible, right?
Now I have to look and see what other people wrote about it, yes.

in which you'll find the most glaring example of god requiring someone to be killed.

Continuing with the NT, you have Ananias and Sapphira. Apparently, Peter didn't have to ask to have them killed; god did it gladly on his own. And then one can read Revelation, where more of god's voluntary future bloodlust is revealed.

Since Jesus and God are one, it doesn't count.
Outside the gospels is the OT and the rest of the NT. Here God deals with people and there is death, but I don't see bloodlust. I think God doesn't care too much about life as we know it. According to the Bible, this life is the result from the "original sin", thus I don't see why God should attach so much importance to it. Reconciliation with God is what really matters to him, much more than our present life.

Mageth · 04-02-2003, 09:10 AM

Sometimes I abuse of the Holy Spirit. But this is something you lack, so I am in better terms than you to interpret the Bible, right?

Wrong, since the holy spirit doesn't exist for you or me. But if it does, how do you know when you're "abusing" it and when you're not?

Edited to add: further, if the h.s. really does exist, how do you know that it's not able to "speak" to or through me, a non-believer, in interpreting the bible as well?

Since Jesus and God are one, it doesn't count.

God required someone to die, someone's blood to be shed, for the remission of sins. The human half of the ManGod Jesus paid that price. The "God" half did not die, unless you think god can be killed.

Outside the gospels is the OT and the rest of the NT. Here God deals with people and there is death, but I don't see bloodlust.

God requires blood for sin. This is evident throughout the bible. How is this not some kind of "bloodlust?" What is god's fascination with blood?

I think God doesn't care too much about life as we know it.

That's obvious, reading the bible. But then, why did he create it in the first place?

According to the Bible, this life is the result from the "original sin",

I thought god created life in the bible.

thus I don't see why God should attach so much importance to it.

That seems evident, what with all the killing he's described as doing, or requiring. But again, then why did god create life?

Reconciliation with God is what really matters to him, much more than our present life.

Then, if we indeed live on after this present life, why is god described as shutting us off from any chance of reconciliation, if we did not do so in this "present life?"

Nic Tamzek · 04-02-2003, 09:55 AM

One of my fond college memories is when the class was discussing Abraham's aborted sacrifice of his son, and the prof mischeiviously brought up the story of Jepthah's daughter saying, "there are other instances of human sacrifice in the Bible" or some such.

What hasn't been mentioned yet is that in the story Jepthah gives his daughter a month (or 40 days or something) to go into the mountains and "bewail her virginity".

I recall commenting that if Jepthah's daughter knew she had 40 days to live, she would be doing something within her virginity other than losing it...

Ab_Normal · 04-02-2003, 10:43 AM

"I'm gonna party like it's BC 999"

7thangel · 04-02-2003, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rfwu
I found this from www.religioustolerance.com.
God permits a human sacrifice: Jephthah led the fight against the Ammonites. He promised God that if he was victorious that he would conduct an human sacrifice, ritually murdering the first person to meets him on his return to his house. God gives him the victory, and does not intervene when Jephthah ritually murders his only daughter.
Judges 11:30-39 "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering...And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child...And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed..."

And they say that this is good?

There is a lesson behind the story in which we should learn. Bible histories actually give us understanding of the godhead, they were intended to happen. The offering of Isaac, Noah amd the flood, Jacob and Esau, most specifically the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ, etc. As it is written, " And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:15-17. The same written scriptures, were the stories passed orally to one onother for each's learning.

As we focus on Christ himself, why does a holy, anointed, and future king needs to suffer? And also his apostles and disciples be like sheep for slaughter? But what we learn from the story of Christ, we also learn from the story of Jephthah and his daughter.

The very core of what we should learn from Jephthah's story is of God's predestination by simply understanding that nobody can please God. We are saved through grace, not by works, so there is no way we can proudly say that we can repay God of His goodness. Jephthah's thought and attempt to please God is actually abhorred of God. And God's deep displeasure allowed Jephthah's daughter to be offered.

Man is a creation of God. Man's being is given of God. So the chosen had nothing to boast unto the lost. Christ himself called himself a "worm." We are no better than anybody, we were just chosen, predestined to become who we are, sanctified of God. Romans 8:28-30

GarColga · 04-02-2003, 08:49 PM

Here are some other passages that seem to indicate that human sacrifice was performed by the people of the OT:

Lev 27:28-29 "No devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast ... shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death".

Ex 22:29 "Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me".

Num 31:25-29 "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation: And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD".

2 Sam 21:1, 8-9, 14 "Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.... The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul ... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD....And after that God was intreated for the land".

Dr Rick · 04-02-2003, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
There is a lesson behind the story in which we should learn.

Yeah, never go near any crazy mo-fo that makes promises to god.

Maybe that's why God didn't answer my prayers; I never promised to kill somebody if he came through

:banghead: *doh!*

Rick

winstonjen · 04-02-2003, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel

We are saved through grace, not by works, so there is no way we can proudly say that we can repay God of His goodness.

That is only because your 'good' god set an arbitrary price that is too high, because he is vain.

Quote:

Jephthah's thought and attempt to please God is actually abhorred of God. And God's deep displeasure allowed Jephthah's daughter to be offered.

Then god should have told him so. And Jephthah seemed to care more about the victory than his daughter, so the deterrent failed miserably.

winstonjen · 04-02-2003, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
So the chosen had nothing to boast unto the lost. Christ himself called himself a "worm." We are no better than anybody, we were just chosen, predestined to become who we are, sanctified of God. Romans 8:28-30

Except that they aren't going to hell, which they seem to rub into everyone else's faces.

And why 'chosen'? What about free will? Or do you admit your god plays favourites and is EVIL?

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04-01-2003, 10:21 PM	#11
rfwu Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Sunny California Posts: 1,336	jmborr, I did not write the analysis of that passage. I merely directed you to an analysis of a website (www.religioustolerance.com) that I simply agreed with. I hope that I did not commit plaigerism or something.

04-02-2003, 08:36 AM	#12
jmborr Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: everett MA USA Posts: 46	are you Pro-choice? Yes. And your explanation is extrabiblical, obviously. Yet you jab at the OP with "You do not understand the passage." Sometimes I abuse of the Holy Spirit. But this is something you lack, so I am in better terms than you to interpret the Bible, right? Now I have to look and see what other people wrote about it, yes. in which you'll find the most glaring example of god requiring someone to be killed. Continuing with the NT, you have Ananias and Sapphira. Apparently, Peter didn't have to ask to have them killed; god did it gladly on his own. And then one can read Revelation, where more of god's voluntary future bloodlust is revealed. Since Jesus and God are one, it doesn't count. Outside the gospels is the OT and the rest of the NT. Here God deals with people and there is death, but I don't see bloodlust. I think God doesn't care too much about life as we know it. According to the Bible, this life is the result from the "original sin", thus I don't see why God should attach so much importance to it. Reconciliation with God is what really matters to him, much more than our present life.

04-02-2003, 09:10 AM	#13
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Sometimes I abuse of the Holy Spirit. But this is something you lack, so I am in better terms than you to interpret the Bible, right? Wrong, since the holy spirit doesn't exist for you or me. But if it does, how do you know when you're "abusing" it and when you're not? Edited to add: further, if the h.s. really does exist, how do you know that it's not able to "speak" to or through me, a non-believer, in interpreting the bible as well? Since Jesus and God are one, it doesn't count. God required someone to die, someone's blood to be shed, for the remission of sins. The human half of the ManGod Jesus paid that price. The "God" half did not die, unless you think god can be killed. Outside the gospels is the OT and the rest of the NT. Here God deals with people and there is death, but I don't see bloodlust. God requires blood for sin. This is evident throughout the bible. How is this not some kind of "bloodlust?" What is god's fascination with blood? I think God doesn't care too much about life as we know it. That's obvious, reading the bible. But then, why did he create it in the first place? According to the Bible, this life is the result from the "original sin", I thought god created life in the bible. thus I don't see why God should attach so much importance to it. That seems evident, what with all the killing he's described as doing, or requiring. But again, then why did god create life? Reconciliation with God is what really matters to him, much more than our present life. Then, if we indeed live on after this present life, why is god described as shutting us off from any chance of reconciliation, if we did not do so in this "present life?"

04-02-2003, 09:55 AM	#14
Nic Tamzek Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: California Posts: 646	One of my fond college memories is when the class was discussing Abraham's aborted sacrifice of his son, and the prof mischeiviously brought up the story of Jepthah's daughter saying, "there are other instances of human sacrifice in the Bible" or some such. What hasn't been mentioned yet is that in the story Jepthah gives his daughter a month (or 40 days or something) to go into the mountains and "bewail her virginity". I recall commenting that if Jepthah's daughter knew she had 40 days to live, she would be doing something within her virginity other than losing it...

04-02-2003, 10:43 AM	#15
Ab_Normal Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,842	"I'm gonna party like it's BC 999"

04-02-2003, 08:49 PM	#17
GarColga Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boise, Idaho, USA Posts: 57	Here are some other passages that seem to indicate that human sacrifice was performed by the people of the OT: Lev 27:28-29 "No devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast ... shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death". Ex 22:29 "Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me". Num 31:25-29 "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation: And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD". 2 Sam 21:1, 8-9, 14 "Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.... The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul ... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD....And after that God was intreated for the land".

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