Freethought & Rationalism Archive

beyelzu · 02-14-2003, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fiach
Fundies who are 40-49% of Americans are the vast majority of violent convicts. Why? They have no personal standards for morality. If they do something bad all they need to do is get saved again, and it wipes the slate clean. But the police will still arrest them for murder, robbery, rape.

Disclaimer: Atheists and Fundies are from different educational groups and socio-economic groups. Atheists are generally at one end of the spectrum with fundies at the lower end.

Fiach

Any proof for these two assertions. While I have read that atheists and agnostics make up a disproportionately small percentage of prison populations, I have not seen any statistics that suggest that atheists come from bette socioeconomic backgrounds than theists.

I also havent seen any statistics that show that fundamentalist xians are almost half of the population in the us.

emur · 02-15-2003, 07:56 AM

Check Barna's website for stats on the various religious and non-religious breakdowns in the US. The link is http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PagePre...5&Reference=B.

The breakdown is very interesting.

Mel

spurly · 02-24-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
Greetings All!

A while back, I had a conversation with my aunt (fundy Xian of the Calvary Chapel variety) about what I feel are the questionable ethics of events such as Billy Graham�s �Crusades�, Greg Laurie�s �Harvest Crusade� that occurs here in Southern California each summer, and similarly, evangelistic church services (not the normal Sunday services) that take place for the sole purpose of winning converts right then and there (via �altar calls� etc.)

My primary ethical problems with these types of events are:

1) The subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle tactics of emotional manipulation employed � often including common �brainwashing� techniques

2) The hard-sell pressure of �you must do this NOW� (come forward and �accept Christ�).

As such, my argument to her was twofold; that

A) It is irrational to accept any truth-claim (particularly one of such purported magnitude) without investigating it for yourself, as opposed to just taking someone�s (or a group�s) word for it (keyword: gullibility!) Therefore, I find it unethical for a group to pressure others into doing just that � putting them on the spot, so to speak, by intimating that if you don�t �do it now� you just *never know* if you�ll have the chance again (classic intimidation/fear tactic.)

B) If Christianity is indeed �The Truth�, the preachers and evangelizers should have no fear of presenting people with the �evidence� and encouraging them to investigate it for themselves. If its� true, it should hold up to critical examination and they will have won a convert for pointing them in the right direction to find out for themselves.

C) The hypocrisy factor: she admitted (and I think most fundy Xians would) that she would be none too pleased if here 16-year-old daughter were to come home and announce that she had embraced Islam/LDS/whatever solely by virtue of having gone to a scriptural study/rally/service and listening to some music and a sermon that urged her to �do this now before it�s too late�! They would, no doubt, see this as a remarkable lapse in judgement, but they do not hesitate to expect and HOPE that others will do just this at *their* events. That is, after all, the whole idea.

Anyone else have thoughts on this? I am curious as to whether I am missing anything or whether this line of reasoning seems sound. Also, if you are a theist and disagree, I welcome your comments. Well... I have a feeling I won't welcome *some* resident theists' comments and you know who you are I"ll bet but I don't think I'm allowed to say "Stay Out!" (except in SL&S) so... fire away!!!!

Thanks!

Lauri

As a Christian, I don't like the high pressure sales pitch either. The truth will stand on it's own. At a youth conference we went to this weekend we had one young man (13 years old) who had never heard of Jesus, sin, the cross, etc. He absolutely knew nothing. It would have been easy to manipulate him - and it would have been wrong. He wants to talk more - so we will. But why rush him into a decision that he knows nothing about. That would be ludicrous.

Some would have already done that - I realize that. But hopefully, as he, his friend, and I study together he will accept Christ on his own when he sees the veracity of his claims.

Kevin

spurly · 02-24-2003, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001
That pressure to accept Jesus this instant is one thing I find offensive in Chick tracts. Have you ever noticed that whenever a Chick character's reaction to preaching is "I've got to think about this," he always dies before coming to a decision, and goes to hell? Yeah, that's realistic.

It has always been my practice to get people to think, pray, think, pray, think, pray, talk to wise people, think, pray, etc. If that is not done, the decision will often fade as quickly as it was made.

Kevin

christ-on-a-stick · 02-24-2003, 11:09 AM

Greetings spurly-Kevin.

From my OP:

Quote:

B) If Christianity is indeed �The Truth�, the preachers and evangelizers should have no fear of presenting people with the �evidence� and encouraging them to investigate it for themselves. If its� true, it should hold up to critical examination and they will have won a convert for pointing them in the right direction to find out for themselves.

I would like to point out that "investigation", IMO, includes looking at the "evidence" critically and from all angles (not just the evidence deemed "for").

I would challenge you to point your 13-year-old young man to the boards here... encourage him to do some heavy reading in Existence of God, Biblical Criticism & Archeology, Evolution/Creation and GRD. Also, encourage him to read through The Library thoroughly BEFORE making a decision. Then if he accepts Christianity, won't he have made a choice based on looking at all the evidence? Is such a decision not more respectable?

Lauri

*EDIT: Scratch the order of the above, it would obviously make more sense for him to read in the Library first before coming to the forum - otherwise he won't have any fricking idea what some of the discussion in the upper fora are about. There is a wealth of information in the Library.... I'm not sure if you have read much in there either but I would highly reccomend it.

02-24-2003, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
It would have been easy to manipulate him - and it would have been wrong. He wants to talk more - so we will. But why rush him into a decision that he knows nothing about. That would be ludicrous.

Some would have already done that - I realize that. But hopefully, as he, his friend, and I study together he will accept Christ on his own when he sees the veracity of his claims.

Kevin

Kind of like "foreplay" so the climax will be most penetrating? Shame on you. Do you google him much in anticipation these days?

Mad Kally · 02-24-2003, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Posted by Amos:
To be a victim at such a gathering is the most evil that can ever befall a person because it seems to affect their entire being for life. It is as if they play a hokus pokus on their mind and the intensity of the trauma (their success) is measured in different degrees of reaction. "God has been good," they say, and "seeing a light" is the best, speaking in tongues is also good and slain in the spirit is next. Those who don't respond are possessed and need more intense treatment that is available later that night (some weeks after this a man kicked his wife out after she left the second cheque for 5000,-) .

ROFL Amos. My mom is a Charismatic. Hey Ms Stick, she goes to the Rock Christian Center in Loma Linda or Redlands. (They run together) They do the same stuff exactly. They include the message that if you are not tithing 10% of your gross income you're on the highway to hell.

They get speakers from all over and even had TAMMY FAYE once. lol What a fucking airhead. I asked my mom to get me a tape. ALL she talked about was how much she needs a man because she's so helpless and how much she LOVES shopping! hahaha

edited to add: They are building a new $20 million church right in the middle of an extreme poverty area. (The massive amount of land was cheap) This just doesn't seem right considering all the homeless people in this city.

spurly · 02-24-2003, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos
Kind of like "foreplay" so the climax will be most penetrating? Shame on you. Do you google him much in anticipation these days?

Amos, that was not what I intended, and you know it.

Kevin

christ-on-a-stick · 02-24-2003, 03:57 PM

Yoohoo, Kevin, did you have a chance to read my post yet?

Yes, I know, patience and all... not my strong suit

christ-on-a-stick · 02-24-2003, 04:00 PM

Hey Kally,

Quote:

edited to add: They are building a new $20 million church right in the middle of an extreme poverty area. (The massive amount of land was cheap) This just doesn't seem right considering all the homeless people in this city.

It seems downright wrong - ethically reprehensible actually IMO.

$20 million for a fantasy when children are going to bed hungry and as you said, people are sleeping on the streets.

Would Jesus give this his blessing?

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02-15-2003, 07:56 AM	#22
emur Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: New York State Posts: 130	Check Barna's website for stats on the various religious and non-religious breakdowns in the US. The link is http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PagePre...5&Reference=B. The breakdown is very interesting. Mel

02-24-2003, 03:57 PM	#29
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Yoohoo, Kevin, did you have a chance to read my post yet? Yes, I know, patience and all... not my strong suit

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