Freethought & Rationalism Archive

seanie · 02-13-2003, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lamma
I don't give a damn if Iraq has chemical weapons or has ties to Al Qaeda. The facts are that they have screwed around with the rules they agreed to and now it's time to pay the piper.

And if Saddam breaking the rules involves thousands of Iraqis paying with their lives then fuck 'em.

Gee.

It's almost as if you want more vacant real estate on Manhattan.

Sakpo · 02-13-2003, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Three-Three
Well, I'm of the opinion that not one American soldier's life is worth several thousand of those wacky creatures (subhuman or not).

Are you serious?

And why risk any lives in this war, American or "ally" or Iraqi?

Three-Three · 02-13-2003, 09:23 AM

I really want to express that there are those of us here in the U.S. who might be in favor of this impending war and are *not* necessarily warmongers just itching to kick someone's ass over 9/11. Some people, like Moon up there, are probably against *all* war. That's OK by me. But they are still going to lose the debate in the U.S. on this war at this time.

I can understand why some of the college students and young people are not so keen on the idea of invading Iraq. After all, it is their lives on the line. I have a nephew who is a Navy corpman who shipped out with the Marines a couple of weeks ago.

I remember in junior high school when those guardsmen shot those students up at Kent State. We sat down in the hallways, we were twelve and thirteen years old, for about half-and-hour , chanting "stop the war" before the principal about had a coronary. Vietnam *was* an insane war. I don't think this one qualifies as an unjustified, isane war. I protested against the reinstitution of draft registration during Carter's tenure.

I am not a warmonger. I don't like it or what it does to families. But someone saying that we're all insane motherfuckers who just want to slaughter millions is not reasonable.

emphryio · 02-13-2003, 09:34 AM

Three-Three, your consent has been manufactured perfectly.

Manufacturing Consent by Edward Herman & Noam Chomsky.

yaktldg · 02-13-2003, 09:43 AM

lamma: "The facts are that they have screwed around with the rules they agreed to and now it's time to pay the piper."

Quote:

I quote Harry Browne's opinion piece A Little History Can Be a Dangerous Thing:

"For example, amateur historians remind us impatiently that the reason Iraq must disarm (which no one else is doing) is that Hussein promised to disarm at the end of the Gulf War in 1991.

"Of course, they neglect to tell us that the "promise" was made at the point of a gun. You don't "freely" give your money to a mugger when he says, "Your money or your life." Promises and actions that are coerced are morally meaningless.

"But citing Hussein's promise isn't the only way history is misused."

[edit: quotation attributed incorrectly to seanie, corrected to lamma]

Three-Three · 02-13-2003, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakpo
Are you serious?

Uh, yeah.

I think that if necessary to save one American soldier's life, we might have to kill several thousand Iraqi soldiers, well, that's the way it's got to be. I'm an American. And I don't want to see Americans die. You are incredulous about this opinion?

And why risk any lives in this war, American or "ally" or Iraqi? [/QUOTE]

Are you serious?

yaktldg · 02-13-2003, 09:55 AM

t-t: "I can understand why some of the college students and young people are not so keen on the idea of invading Iraq. After all, it is their lives on the line."

I think that fits for the chickenhawks. They aren't going to die, so push for war is OK. But there's no draft, nor does it seem to be even a possibility at this point. I don't think that's a big factor in people's judgments.

t-t: "Vietnam *was* an insane war. I don't think this one qualifies as an unjustified, isane war."

What's the difference? It's going to be easier? Successful? Is that how you calculate the moral justification of a war: if it's politically viable and quickly winnable? Why is one insane and not the other?

Three-Three · 02-13-2003, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emphryio
Three-Three, your consent has been manufactured perfectly.

Manufacturing Consent by Edward Herman & Noam Chomsky.

emphryio.

Your number of posts has just ironically hit 666.

Congratulations.

Oh, and my consent is based on many things. Many, many things.

I despise that moron George Bush. Didn't vote for him.

yaktldg · 02-13-2003, 10:36 AM

t-t: "I think that if necessary to save one American soldier's life, we might have to kill several thousand Iraqi soldiers"

This kind of racism is usually kept private. What makes an American life worth a thousand times an Iraqi life? Because we look/talk more like you?

But you do say "if necessary," which nobody thinks is the case, except a gullible, paranoid minority. If you want to save not just one American life but dozens, possibly hundreds, don't invade and occupy another country. I think that's what Sakpo meant by: "And why risk any lives in this war, American or "ally" or Iraqi?".

Three-Three · 02-13-2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gqtie
...I don't think that's a big factor in people's judgments.

You're probably right about that.

But I think it could be if this war is going to be the long-protracted bloodbath (or slaughter) that the original poster insinuated, and my point was that it wasn't going to be a war of that kind of character. Of course, he could have meant just a short-term war-mongering slaughter, which I think is kind of rare.

And I'd love to get into the difference between Vietnam and Iraq, but I don't have the time today, or in the next several weeks for that matter. (Geez! ) The question really kind of makes me dizzy. We could go on and on with the differences amongst the wars of history, I suppose, but no answer would be satisfying, I don't think, to you.

But I do resent the insinuation that I am in favor of this war simply because of the relative cake-walk it is going to be. I supose my criteria for war resembles that of Powel and Bush and Rumsfeld, irrespective of the fact that I think Bush is a moron and Rumsfeld an asshat. I do, however, think they are right in their justification for this war.

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02-13-2003, 09:23 AM	#13
Three-Three Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: United States Posts: 26	I really want to express that there are those of us here in the U.S. who might be in favor of this impending war and are not necessarily warmongers just itching to kick someone's ass over 9/11. Some people, like Moon up there, are probably against all war. That's OK by me. But they are still going to lose the debate in the U.S. on this war at this time. I can understand why some of the college students and young people are not so keen on the idea of invading Iraq. After all, it is their lives on the line. I have a nephew who is a Navy corpman who shipped out with the Marines a couple of weeks ago. I remember in junior high school when those guardsmen shot those students up at Kent State. We sat down in the hallways, we were twelve and thirteen years old, for about half-and-hour , chanting "stop the war" before the principal about had a coronary. Vietnam was an insane war. I don't think this one qualifies as an unjustified, isane war. I protested against the reinstitution of draft registration during Carter's tenure. I am not a warmonger. I don't like it or what it does to families. But someone saying that we're all insane motherfuckers who just want to slaughter millions is not reasonable.

02-13-2003, 09:34 AM	#14
emphryio Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: WV Posts: 4,369	Three-Three, your consent has been manufactured perfectly. Manufacturing Consent by Edward Herman & Noam Chomsky.

02-13-2003, 09:55 AM	#17
yaktldg Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: usa Posts: 300	t-t: "I can understand why some of the college students and young people are not so keen on the idea of invading Iraq. After all, it is their lives on the line." I think that fits for the chickenhawks. They aren't going to die, so push for war is OK. But there's no draft, nor does it seem to be even a possibility at this point. I don't think that's a big factor in people's judgments. *t-t: "Vietnam was* an insane war. I don't think this one qualifies as an unjustified, isane war."** What's the difference? It's going to be easier? Successful? Is that how you calculate the moral justification of a war: if it's politically viable and quickly winnable? Why is one insane and not the other?

02-13-2003, 10:36 AM	#19
yaktldg Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: usa Posts: 300	t-t: "I think that if necessary to save one American soldier's life, we might have to kill several thousand Iraqi soldiers" This kind of racism is usually kept private. What makes an American life worth a thousand times an Iraqi life? Because we look/talk more like you? But you do say "if necessary," which nobody thinks is the case, except a gullible, paranoid minority. If you want to save not just one American life but dozens, possibly hundreds, don't invade and occupy another country. I think that's what Sakpo meant by: "And why risk any lives in this war, American or "ally" or Iraqi?".

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