Freethought & Rationalism Archive

AJ113 · 06-09-2003, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
Then why are you commenting back on his character if you do not believe that he even existed? You gave him the intent that his character validates the OT by frequently referencing to it... did not you ?

So if I quote Marvin the Paranoid Android from The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy I am inferring that I think he is real? Get a grip, Sabine.

I shall, for the remainder of this thread, and for your sole benefit, Sabine, refer to the christ character in the book known as the bible as: "christ" or "jesus"

So, in answer to your to question: the reason that I brought your attention to the fact that "jesus" validates the OT by making frequent references to it, was in order to highlight the apparent illogicality of of choosing to follow the NT and not the OT.

Biff the unclean · 06-09-2003, 12:03 PM

And once again the same flaw comes up.
Sabine can look in the bible and find the Jesus character saying 'forget the OT there's a new ball game."
And AJ113 can look in the exact same book and find the exact same character insisting the OT be followed to the letter. He even takes the Priests (characters) to task because they offer forgiveness and no longer stone unruly teenaged boys to death.

The authors obviously had no Jesus to base their fiction on.

AJ113 · 06-09-2003, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
And once again the same flaw comes up.
Sabine can look in the bible and find the Jesus character saying 'forget the OT there's a new ball game."
And AJ113 can look in the exact same book and find the exact same character insisting the OT be followed to the letter. He even takes the Priests (characters) to task because they offer forgiveness and no longer stone unruly teenaged boys to death.

The authors obviously had no Jesus to base their fiction on.

HAH! GOTCHA! You talked about Jesus! That means you think he's real!

Sabine Grant · 06-09-2003, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
" The French businessmen's club" as you defined french freemasonery indicates your lack of appreciation of humanistic beliefs.
Rather it demonstrates an objective understanding of Freemasons.
Is that why you never answered my question addressed in a previous post " do you consider yourself a humanist?"

I answered your question as to defining humanism. So what I commented on is very relevant. Did you expect a dictionary definition or one based on PERSONAL experience? do you have a problem with arguments based on PERSONAL experience?
I had hoped for a definition based on historic usage of the term, the dictionary would have been fine too. I feared that I would get your personal definition based on your personal experience.
It seems odd that you of all people should be concerned with not getting your questions answered when you have raised evasion to an art form (in fact you are doing it now). And that after all your complaints that people claim to know what you are thinking (after you tell them what you are thinking!!) that you expect people to know the meaning of a word that exists only in your thoughts.
Sigh, oh well.
To answer your question--by any historic or dictionary usage of the word Yes I'm a Humanist. By you personal definition, No I am not. The reason I would not be in Sabinespeak is that I follow the warnings of Jesus. I do not think myself wise for gladly suffering fools. Which seems to be a requirement in your world.

You have yet to answer my inquiry : do you dismiss the accomplishement of any individual based on their religious preference? Does a theist hold less credibility as an individual who can contribute to the betterment of mankind simply because he is a theist? yes or no at this point will suffice.
Unlike you, I do not. If a person accomplishes evil based on their religious delusions I do not ignore them and focus solely on the people who are fighting them who hold exactly the same religion but choose different sections of the same bible.

What do you imply by your last remark ?
Surely all those little yellow guys banging their heads against a wall are a give away.

are there some details of my father's life I may not be aware of but you are ?
Hmmm a person who had you as a daughter and had to deal with your unique logic and your ego -centric mania whose personality shifts away from his normal pleasantness�is anyone surprised?

your arguments point to you resorting to characterization and more gross assumptions
Observations, not assumptions.
as well as demeaning labeling of a group you obviously have no knowledge of and wish to not document yourself on . Your quote " I could give a rats hinny about French freemasons". Are you then forfaiting the opportunity I gave you to demonstrate that my knowledge of my father's humanistic beliefs were indeed based on my " ego centric view" ( your quote) and not the product of his association with a humanistic ideology centered group?
Sabine try to understand this. French Freemasons, and your father are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I said that your definition of Humanism was ego-centric because I read it. I assumed nothing, I observed what you yourself had written.

Just as I observe that AGAIN you are ignoring the point which is
The completely contradictory positions that the bible holds demonstrates that it is fictional.
Every example that you put forward of a Christian doing good by values that they had found in the bible they were combating other Christians who had taken completely opposite values from the exact same bible.
Just as I observe that AGAIN you portray yourself as a victim rather than deal with the issue at hand.
This new business of "cherry picking" the argument, while ignoring the entirety of it, is an interesting type of strawman. It's a strange thing to do when you are attempting to extol Christian virtues. But it does demonstrate another reason why Christianity is a failure and should be abandoned. It shows that Christians think that any damn thing they do is just fine because they are Christians.

Biff...... again... you are resorting to also defaming the relationship between my father and myself. You also claim clearly that you have an " objective" understanding of Freemasons yet you chose to depict that organization as a " business men's club" reducing its ideology to some mercantilist purpose. It is clear to me that you have never been involved with either the GOF or GL in France. Your demeaning remarks therefor are taken as coming from a thought process based on ignorance.
You have quite RADICAL thoughts about christianity and christians. As if you cannot live a peaceful existence without the need to demean and denigrate a faith and those who live by that faith. At this point, I would say that my father was probably more secure in his lack of belief in any faith than you appear to be.

As a humanist..... do you relate equaly in a social setting with all individuals no matter what their religious preference may be? or their nationality? or race? or lifestyle? do you uphold to find worth in people no matter what their preference may be? I think I recall you mentionning that you are a world traveler.....which may mean that you mingle with various cultures. Any muslim buddies? buddhists? maybe a wiccan? anyone who happens to represent what you despise? or does it stand in the way of how you would treat someone?

You see Biff my father's example is very relevant for he did not confine his humanistic beliefs to intellectualism. He applied them. As much as he despised religion, never did he treat a religious person differently than he would treat a non religious individual. He was so SECURE in his beliefs that he never had the need to demean anyone or any group of individuals to feel that what he chose was right for him. And that was the root of his wisedom.

I will close on that last comment. It is my hope that indeed you have taken advantage of your world traveler position to appreciate the diversity of the human potential.
Veronique.

Biff the unclean · 06-09-2003, 06:18 PM

You know Veronique, there is no need to reprint everything I say as a whole. It's already there on the board.
again... you are resorting to also defaming the relationship between my father and myself.
Actually what I am doing is mocking how pompous you are
You also claim clearly that you have an " objective" understanding of Freemasons yet you chose to depict that organization as a " business men's club" reducing its ideology to some mercantilist purpose.
It's called "reality" get used to it.
Your demeaning remarks therefor are taken as coming from a thought process based on ignorance.
And your constant tirades are taken as your not being able to reply to the topic so you once again are trying to derail it.
You have quite RADICAL thoughts about christianity and christians.
Then perhaps you should counter them with some facts instead of constantly attempting to derail the topic. I've shown your religion to be based on fiction, counter that or admit to it.
As if you cannot live a peaceful existence without the need to demean and denigrate a faith and those who live by that faith.
Oh you poor poor thing, the mean old Atheist won't tell you how wonderful you are for being a Christian.

At this point, I would say that my father was probably more secure in his lack of belief in any faith than you appear to be.
At this point I would say that you could take your father and sho�well the Mod will delete this anyway if I put it in. Your father has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. You are using him only to derail the topic.

As a humanist..... do you relate equaly in a social setting with all individuals no matter what their religious preference may be?
That's got nothing to do with classical Humanism.
or their nationality? or race? or lifestyle? do you uphold to find worth in people no matter what their preference may be?
That's funny, you want to make me out as a racist and a bigot because I am opposed to the spreading of Christian lies and hatred. Because they are Christian you think it's okay. Or are you okay with the spreading of any lies and any hatred?
I think I recall you mentionning that you are a world traveler.....which may mean that you mingle with various cultures.
Of course it does.
Any muslim buddies? buddhists? maybe a wiccan? anyone who happens to represent what you despise? or does it stand in the way of how you would treat someone?
Now I get it. That's why the French were so quick to welcome the Nazi's into Paris. Because they were Humanists and don't think ill of anyone no matter what that person believes.

As much as he despised religion, never did he treat a religious person differently than he would treat a non religious individual.
I don't. If a non-religious person told me a story as ridiculous as the story of Christ I'd call them a liar too. If an Atheist attempted to over throw the Constitution and to have magic taught in school instead of science I'd oppose them.
He was so SECURE in his beliefs that he never had the need to demean anyone or any group of individuals to feel that what he chose was right for him. And that was the root of his wisedom.
I don't care�he has nothing to do with this thread

It is my hope that indeed you have taken advantage of your world traveler position to appreciate the diversity of the human potential.
Give me a bloody break! Can you get off that high horse of yours for a moment. My last trip was to Mefou in Cameroon where I got to appreciate the cultural diversity of the poachers who are driving the low land gorillas to extinction. Because in a throwback to cannibalism these bastards are shooting and selling the meat of our relatives the gorillas. Had the opportunity presented itself I would have gladly shot these murders myself.
Then I was treated to the cultural diversity of ex-patriot American mercenaries and African petty government officials.
I appreciate all of these people, alright. I appreciate them for exactly what they are worth.

BadBadBad · 06-10-2003, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
I think that I was still awaiting for you to provide a medical definition of the words " dementia" and " psychosis" when I last commented in that thread.

You were derailing the thread onto definitions of words just like you've done here. As I recall predestination and choice were words you chose for this thread, where it was dementia and psychosis in the other thread. Of course, the meaning of the words isn't the issue. You know what choice and predestination mean as well as psychosis and dementia. It's not a language barrier. From your writing and my experience with other French speakers, I believe you speak fluent English. This is just one of your tactics for evading the issue.

In this case, you asked for verses supporting predestination. I gave them to you. You still haven't responded. Rather than respond, you chose to focus on only two words of my position. "Fool God." Do you remember that Sabine? My choice of words in that one sentence aren't the issue. They don't characterize my position, and I believe you know it. Rather than respond, you stopped the conversation waiting on my definition of "fool God." You went on to whine about my suppositions of your opinion. I can see this is typical for you Sabine.

The challenge to your position has been re-characterized. It's been restated for Tarnaack. We've repeated it several times. As it stands now, we have established a Biblical basis for opposing your viewpoints on predestination and other issues. You have responded with the authority of your personal walks with Jesus. Is that it? Your personal walks with Jesus as opposed to the cannonized God breathed word of the Bible?

Your experience is contradicted by the cannonized and God inspired, God Breathed, word of the Bible. Oh yeah, and the inspired word of God contradicts itself particularly with respect to salvation, grace, predestinationl, and free will. I guess that's no problem for those who have personal walks with Jesus himself. I'm sure he's explained all of that to you quite clearly in person no doubt. That doesn't really answer the question though does it? Does Jesus explain it to you because God selected you for Grace from the beginning of time through his righteousness, or did you earn the eternal righteousness and grace of God simply through believing in God? Jesus directed you to believe the latter so by God, it's the latter? Frankly, I find that very unconvincing.

This is an atheist board, and we're skeptics. Perhaps you'll understand if we doubt the authority and credibility of your personal walks with Jesus. You do understand that don't you? Do you have anything else to back up your claims or to respond to the rebuttals presented by numerous posters in this thread?

Nowhere357 · 06-10-2003, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brettc
You were derailing the thread onto definitions of words just like you've done here.

I am commenting here on the statement above, only. If I have you out of context, I apologize.

I fail to see how clarifying definitions should be considered "derailment". Maybe you mean, when used as a tactic to avoid answering questions?

In my experience, the deeper into thought we go, the more important it is to agree on what exactly we're talking about.

BadBadBad · 06-10-2003, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nowhere357
I am commenting here on the statement above, only. If I have you out of context, I apologize.

I fail to see how clarifying definitions should be considered "derailment". Maybe you mean, when used as a tactic to avoid answering questions?

In my experience, the deeper into thought we go, the more important it is to agree on what exactly we're talking about.

Here is a perfect example of word definitions used to derail the topic at hand.

"It depends on what the meaning of the word is is. If the...if he...if is means is and never has been, that is not - that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement"

Now, here's Sabine doing it:

"no I do not believe that God controls people like robots and plans their lives. ( that is the erroneous meaning given to predestination). yes I believe that God has knowledge of what choices a person will make. But He does not control those choices. Can you see the difference? "

"I understand the word predestination ( as in destiny) to be a direct intervention from God in controling the outcome. It is related to fate indeed as brought up before. However it is not the meaning I understand from those verses. "

"Are we dealing on the word destiny or destination here? same in french... destin or destination.. "

"Which definition of free will are you dwelling on? "

"What do you consider the meaning of the word " choice " is?"

"So yes let us discuss the meaning of the word " choice". "

"BRETTC : thank you for quoting those verses... before we can continue to deal on that predestination ordeal, where did you get the notion that I advocate that " we are still free to fool God"? Or I mentionned anywhere that men is free to fool God? That is definitly not what I personaly believe Romans expands on. Is that what YOU read into those verses?"

If you read through the thread ."Children Slain by Mother I think you'll see the exact same type of derailment there. Quibbling over word definitions and whining over mischaracterizations of her position all as a ruse to avoid the topic at hand. If you look through that thread, I think you'll see a very similar pattern to what's going on now with Biff.

"BRETTC : may I ask you to give a definition of the mental disorder known as a " psychosis"? preferably one which is supported by medical research."

"And yes I am asking you to define " mass dementia" so I can comprehend better how a group of individuals may suffer of a diagnosed mental disorder

Biff the unclean · 06-10-2003, 12:16 PM

You must admit that she really is very good at it�derailment that is.
The bit about throwing in her father and making sure that he was irrelevant to the topic for the single purpose of complaining that her father was being attacked when his irrelevance was noted was brilliant. "What you say about my mama sucka? I gonna cut you." I'd have fallen for it if she didn't already make thread derailment a constant habit.
Enough people have complained that she does it whenever she can't respond to a point that she must realize that she is doing it by now. If she didn't always.

Nowhere357 · 06-11-2003, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brettc
Here is a perfect example of word definitions used to derail the topic at hand.

"It depends on what the meaning of the word is is. If the...if he...if is means is and never has been, that is not - that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement"

Heheh. Is this the verbatim quote? What a famous piece of nonsense.

Quote:

Now, here's Sabine doing it:

Well, thanks for dragging me through all that. My fault!

I retract my objection (such as it was). I'm not convinced she's devious, though.

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06-09-2003, 12:03 PM	#162
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	And once again the same flaw comes up. Sabine can look in the bible and find the Jesus character saying 'forget the OT there's a new ball game." And AJ113 can look in the exact same book and find the exact same character insisting the OT be followed to the letter. He even takes the Priests (characters) to task because they offer forgiveness and no longer stone unruly teenaged boys to death. The authors obviously had no Jesus to base their fiction on.

06-09-2003, 06:18 PM	#165
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	You know Veronique, there is no need to reprint everything I say as a whole. It's already there on the board. again... you are resorting to also defaming the relationship between my father and myself. Actually what I am doing is mocking how pompous you are You also claim clearly that you have an " objective" understanding of Freemasons yet you chose to depict that organization as a " business men's club" reducing its ideology to some mercantilist purpose. It's called "reality" get used to it. Your demeaning remarks therefor are taken as coming from a thought process based on ignorance. And your constant tirades are taken as your not being able to reply to the topic so you once again are trying to derail it. You have quite RADICAL thoughts about christianity and christians. Then perhaps you should counter them with some facts instead of constantly attempting to derail the topic. I've shown your religion to be based on fiction, counter that or admit to it. As if you cannot live a peaceful existence without the need to demean and denigrate a faith and those who live by that faith. Oh you poor poor thing, the mean old Atheist won't tell you how wonderful you are for being a Christian. At this point, I would say that my father was probably more secure in his lack of belief in any faith than you appear to be. At this point I would say that you could take your father and sho�well the Mod will delete this anyway if I put it in. Your father has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. You are using him only to derail the topic. As a humanist..... do you relate equaly in a social setting with all individuals no matter what their religious preference may be? That's got nothing to do with classical Humanism. or their nationality? or race? or lifestyle? do you uphold to find worth in people no matter what their preference may be? That's funny, you want to make me out as a racist and a bigot because I am opposed to the spreading of Christian lies and hatred. Because they are Christian you think it's okay. Or are you okay with the spreading of any lies and any hatred? I think I recall you mentionning that you are a world traveler.....which may mean that you mingle with various cultures. Of course it does. Any muslim buddies? buddhists? maybe a wiccan? anyone who happens to represent what you despise? or does it stand in the way of how you would treat someone? Now I get it. That's why the French were so quick to welcome the Nazi's into Paris. Because they were Humanists and don't think ill of anyone no matter what that person believes. As much as he despised religion, never did he treat a religious person differently than he would treat a non religious individual. I don't. If a non-religious person told me a story as ridiculous as the story of Christ I'd call them a liar too. If an Atheist attempted to over throw the Constitution and to have magic taught in school instead of science I'd oppose them. He was so SECURE in his beliefs that he never had the need to demean anyone or any group of individuals to feel that what he chose was right for him. And that was the root of his wisedom. I don't care�he has nothing to do with this thread It is my hope that indeed you have taken advantage of your world traveler position to appreciate the diversity of the human potential. Give me a bloody break! Can you get off that high horse of yours for a moment. My last trip was to Mefou in Cameroon where I got to appreciate the cultural diversity of the poachers who are driving the low land gorillas to extinction. Because in a throwback to cannibalism these bastards are shooting and selling the meat of our relatives the gorillas. Had the opportunity presented itself I would have gladly shot these murders myself. Then I was treated to the cultural diversity of ex-patriot American mercenaries and African petty government officials. I appreciate all of these people, alright. I appreciate them for exactly what they are worth.

06-10-2003, 12:16 PM	#169
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	You must admit that she really is very good at it�derailment that is. The bit about throwing in her father and making sure that he was irrelevant to the topic for the single purpose of complaining that her father was being attacked when his irrelevance was noted was brilliant. "What you say about my mama sucka? I gonna cut you." I'd have fallen for it if she didn't already make thread derailment a constant habit. Enough people have complained that she does it whenever she can't respond to a point that she must realize that she is doing it by now. If she didn't always.

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