Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 04-24-2002, 08:03 AM

Lovely poem about singularity. Notice that the trinity is disolved?

Perhaps because Rumi was a founder of the Mawlawi Sufi order, a leading mystical brotherhood of Islam.

His poetry can be beautiful when translated properly.

04-24-2002, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmashingIdols:
.

I was totally aware of the significance of the firstborn being spared - and it is central to the spring theme. It is at the moment that day is once again longer than night that the firstborn is spared. 

But I am telling you that the firstborn being spared is the crisis moment of winter solstice (from sol and sistere = sun and stand [still]). Awakening begins at this turning point (metanoia) and towards Easter Herod is eager to see the child that he at one time wanted to have killed (Herod is tetrarch of subconsious mind and Pilate was the subordinate ruler of the conscious mind). Read Luke 23:8:12 along this train of thought and see why Herod (Judaic law) wanted Jesus killed and now became friends with Pilate (civil law) to hand him over for crucifixion (annihilation). 

The newborn is fragile until spring - the days are still shorter than the nights. However, at passover the new sun is spared (the firstborn, or new Jesus) because now the Sun [son] has strength, the day is longer than the night.

At Easter, about three years later (purgatory is to last 42 months), the newborn child had become "the young man dressed in white" now sitting on the right side of the tomb (right brain).

The newborn is fragile but only until Epiphany (evidenced by the neutered ox and mule in the stable). After this just the opposite is true and his behavior is described in Rev.13:1-8 (I can do an explication if you like).

Both traditions imply the same - birth during the darkness, the travel towards light gaining strength, and the eventual triumph of the newborn (or firstborn) at spring (passover)!

You win but I disagree.

Examine the relationship to the Herod story as well. This holds true for both Israel and Jesus, after all Jesus was supposed to embody the whole of Israel, if he were to be able to fulfil his destiny.

Of course he did embody the wole of Isreal at Easter (Israel is a state of mind) and showed the children of Israel (and us as grafted branches) how not to get lost in the desert because they all did and therefore died there just as most of us get lost today. Hence his final words "follow me" (instead of "worship me"). The Jews must deny Jesus or Jesus' example would have been the end of their religion. The Jews must follow Jesus after they have been led into the promised land through rebirth.

Last note: Don't confuse any of these statements by me with any religious conviction, once again I believe the man is myth, there is no god.

No apology required. I also believe that the man was myth with the only difference that for me myth is real but not in the sense that we can go looking for him in history but must find him in our innermost being (naos).

04-25-2002, 05:57 AM

Hello SmashingIdols, I should add that the presense of the ox and the mule at the nativity scene affirmed to the magi that no sin had been comitted by the child during the first 10 days. The ox and mule represent the passified Adam and Eve of the ego consciousness and "it was upon seeing this that they entered." How did they see this? With the absense of Joseph the Jew. Note that the presence of the ox and mule is equal to the absense of Joseph the Jew. Juxtapose this (Mt.2:11) with (Lk.2:16) and notice that the shepherds did not enter because they saw Joseph and only looked in to admire.

Clearly, "no sin" begins at Christmas and the burden of Jesus while in purgatory (Gospels) was the release and conversion of sin in the netherworld of his own subconscious mind because that is where the 'fire burns' and the anvil (the law) is located.

SmashingIdols · 04-25-2002, 08:48 AM

Amos - No offense but I really have no interest in the metaphysical meanings of Christianity.

Myth is merely our lack of understanding of the natural world; its being revealed for what it really is (more about what we do not know about nature, than what we do know about God) would be the liberation of humanity.

While I certainly understand how the complexity of "spiritual" meanings can be perpetuated, I have no desire to be any part of it - lacking both a soul and a God.

04-25-2002, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmashingIdols:

Myth is merely our lack of understanding of the natural world; its being revealed for what it really is (more about what we do not know about nature, than what we do know about God) would be the liberation of humanity.

[/b]

No problem and very true. Myth is our lack of understanding the natural world and the unknown element we call the supernatural world. As we increase our knowledge of the natural world we also decrease the unknown "supernatural" element. The question will be if can survive our quest towards understanding because in its origen the myth is for the survival of the tribe.

SmashingIdols · 04-26-2002, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Amos:
Myth is our lack of understanding the natural world and the unknown element we call the supernatural world

Amos, Amos, Amos. This conversation is becoming far too interesting to be buried in this thread about the sun stopping in the sky.

Is it just me, or are there two interpretations of what you said (quoted above)?

Possible interpretations:

1. Mythology is an attempted explanation of the unkown element of our natural world.

Therefore as we increase our knowledge of Nature we diminish our belief in Mythology.

2. We Mythologize because we do not fully understand the existence of the supernatural world, which is real, and all around us.

Therefore as we increase our knowledge of the Supernatural, Mythology becomes reality.

Which is it?

SmashingIdols · 04-26-2002, 07:32 AM

Whoops, I overlooked this tidbit at the end:

Quote:

The question will be if can survive our quest towards understanding because in its origen the myth is for the survival of the tribe.

I concurr! Primitive Mythologies were a way to capture and store vital information for ancient man. When to plant, when to harvest, when the sun would 'leave,' when it would 'return.' Morality. Societal mission. A huge list.

04-26-2002, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmashingIdols:


Amos, Amos, Amos. This conversation is becoming far too interesting to be buried in this thread about the sun stopping in the sky.

Is it just me, or are there two interpretations of what you said (quoted above)?

Possible interpretations:

1. Mythology is an attempted explanation of the unkown element of our natural world.

Therefore as we increase our knowledge of Nature we diminish our belief in Mythology.

2. We Mythologize because we do not fully understand the existence of the supernatural world, which is real, and all around us.

Therefore as we increase our knowledge of the Supernatural, Mythology becomes reality.

Which is it?

Both mean the same thing. Mythology contains the unknown element of nature which you have called the spiritual aspect of nature. Our understanding of this will reduce our belief in the myth (as we gain understanding). When we come to understand myth/nature it becomes real (or it would not be understandable). Knowledge frees is the answer here and freedom from doubt is the evidence of
no faith. Negation of faith/myth is not the answer to understanding nature (Existentialism).

Conversely, the supernatural only exist while we are in oblivion because when we are in heaven there is no longer a supernatural. This same is true with our soul. Until we are one with our soul do we have a soul. When we are one with our soul we no longer have a soul. This same is true with the Holy Spirit, which must also be redundant when we understand nature (are one with our soul or have the mind of God). So also with our belongings. Until we have all things in common are we not one with nature.

04-26-2002, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmashingIdols:
Whoops, I overlooked this tidbit at the end:

I concurr! Primitive Mythologies were a way to capture and store vital information for ancient man. When to plant, when to harvest, when the sun would 'leave,' when it would 'return.' Morality. Societal mission. A huge list.

And as we get smarter the list gets bigger until a crisis moment (revolution, or "Iconoclast") ends the rise of a civilization. From there it is just a matter of time until entropy runs out. (the dynamo driven by the Thousand Year Reign comes to a stop).

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04-24-2002, 08:03 AM	#41
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Lovely poem about singularity. Notice that the trinity is disolved? Perhaps because Rumi was a founder of the Mawlawi Sufi order, a leading mystical brotherhood of Islam. His poetry can be beautiful when translated properly.

04-25-2002, 05:57 AM	#43
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Hello SmashingIdols, I should add that the presense of the ox and the mule at the nativity scene affirmed to the magi that no sin had been comitted by the child during the first 10 days. The ox and mule represent the passified Adam and Eve of the ego consciousness and "it was upon seeing this that they entered." How did they see this? With the absense of Joseph the Jew. Note that the presence of the ox and mule is equal to the absense of Joseph the Jew. Juxtapose this (Mt.2:11) with (Lk.2:16) and notice that the shepherds did not enter because they saw Joseph and only looked in to admire. Clearly, "no sin" begins at Christmas and the burden of Jesus while in purgatory (Gospels) was the release and conversion of sin in the netherworld of his own subconscious mind because that is where the 'fire burns' and the anvil (the law) is located.

04-25-2002, 08:48 AM	#44
SmashingIdols Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 153	Amos - No offense but I really have no interest in the metaphysical meanings of Christianity. Myth is merely our lack of understanding of the natural world; its being revealed for what it really is (more about what we do not know about nature, than what we do know about God) would be the liberation of humanity. While I certainly understand how the complexity of "spiritual" meanings can be perpetuated, I have no desire to be any part of it - lacking both a soul and a God.

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