winstonjen

When theists are suckered in by the lies of religion, is it better to break them all at once or do it slowly? Has anyone had any experience with this?

My theory is that it's better to break them all down at once so that they don't get a chance to grow back.

demoninho

I'm pondering the question myself, but I would say that the slow approach would be the best. The defensive mechanism for any given religion, especially christianity, are very strong. They'll just totally block themselves shutting themselves out for any outside criticism

I think the best way would be to ask a lot of questions that'll make think about their believes.

I still havent figured out what these questions should be.

Maybe some of the ex-xians here could help out with that one.

The_Unknown_Banana

I am also trying to figure this one out. At the moment I'm leaning to the "all at once" option. Perhaps a combo could work - ie. give it to them piecemeal, but before they can fully recover from one argument, throw another at them.

beyelzu

I agree with the slowmoving philosophy.
Questions definitely are necessary.

First you need to isolate the strain of the disease that they are afflicted by.

Then you load up the contradictions and logical problems that can attack that particular strain.

However, beware of the logica and resistant strains known as "vague mystical god" and "deist outside the universe god"

winstonjen

Here are some I got from the forums here.

1. How is an infinite punishment for a finite crime fair?
2. Why is your god exempt from guilt by omission?
3. Why did your god set us up to fail?
4. How can you believe the MEN that wrote the bible?

Gothic_J

for me, it was the more violent bible verses. mark 7:27 - god is a racist - did it for me.

a lot of fundies use creative intepretation for that. so, first off, I use the bible's rampant immorality as the first artillery barrage. say, 1/5 times it breaks them down, they need to pray. a few atheist friends to keep the pressure on usually breaks them.

the other 4/5, they use appeal to authority fallacies. god does it, so its ok. then I break out the history of christianity, mithraism, zoroastrianism. their certainity in the one true faith (tm) breaks down when they see the history of its cult evolution. they take time to pray, and often you can pressure them out of it. say, 1/3.

the remainder says it doesnt matter the history, god works in mysterious ways, etc, I know where I stand in my faith. so I ask them for proof of god. their flailing about when its all dismissed as gossip and heresy usually twitches them out, and sometimes it gets through.

this can take a dozen hours of debate, too, but Ive found the shortcuts.

question 1. would you kill a baby if god told you to. Judges 11:29-39 shows he is willing to ask such things.

if they say no, you break them with the atrocity list. The Court is Now in Session

if they say yes, on to the next question.

question 2. if you were shown the bible to be manmade, would you change your beliefs in any way?

personally, Id like to refine that question. but its early morning -shrugs.

if they say yes, proceed with pantheon.org links and take them down.

if they say no, ask

3. if they had no proof of god, would they still be christians?

if they say yes, you wont break through, give up.

if they say no, ask for proof.


<Edited to fix link - liv>

winstonjen

5. Ask them why there are so many sects of (insert religion here), and why EVERY SINGLE ONE claims to have the ONE TRUTH (TM).
6. Ask them why their god is so deceptive that he hides all evidence for a global flood or a mass exodus from Egypt.

demoninho

I always get stuck on this one the Holy Ghost (tm) is in itself infallible but humans are. Then the circular argument that they don't listen to what church-leaders say but what the Holy Ghost tells them, because the leaders are fallible humans with fallible explanations.

Taking arguments from the bible are also really hard because we are not lead by the said holy ghost thus can not see the true meaning of the bible:banghead:

Fundie logic is actaully not circular it's more like a figure 8 or sometimes even far more complex and breaking one connection they move on to the next and after having addressed them all they move right back to the first.

Gothic_J

hence 12 hr debates.

them saying god made an aged universe and its only been going for 6k yrs is my favorite defense. cant argue it, at all, cause any proof you provide shows how tricky god is.

Haylow

It's better to do it slowly, just to make sure you have selected the right lie to replace it with