Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 02-25-2003, 07:59 PM

God probably gives them each individual souls at the point when they no longer are one - but i don't know for sure.

hezekiah jones · 02-25-2003, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
God probably gives them each individual souls at the point when they no longer are one - but i don't know for sure.

Now you're agnostic?

oriecat · 02-25-2003, 08:14 PM

Hey Magus, since you're still here, please don't neglect my questions and comments above.

Magus55 · 02-25-2003, 09:54 PM

Sorry thats a question i don't really know how to answer. It deals with omniscience which i said is the most mind boggling aspect of God's traits. Ill research it and ask around and get back to you if i find an answer.

oriecat · 02-26-2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oriecat
Imagine the smallest minutest minuscule millisecond before conception. The swimmer has just about pierced the egg, conception is imminent. God is on alert, since he's got a soul to create. In all his omniscience he knows this one isn't gonna work out and will end up tormented eternally away from his presence. *shrug* It's not his fault, because of that free will stuff. He creates it anyway, and another soul suffers eternally. This is ok with you? Would it not be better for him to see what will happen and then NOT create this poor tortured soul?

Is it better for a soul to exist in eternal torment or to never exist at all?

What does this have to do with omniscience? I'm asking for your opinion here.

BadBadBad · 02-26-2003, 09:14 AM

Magus, what about my question? If, like in Romans 9, I'm created like a pot by an omniscient and omnipotent god with my heart hardened against God, to be dishonored by God, and to suffer his wrath for eternity, where does Free Will come into this? Do I get the same shot at Free Will as those christian pots that are blessed by God at birth to have the eternal honor, compassion, mercy, and the eternal bliss of God in heaven?

Have I missed the boat trying to understand this passage from Romans?

I've heard a lot about this Free Will thing. I was brought up in a mixed christian/atheist family. I've always wondered if I get the same free will choice as someone brought up in a righteous christian home. I've always wondered if a Muslim brought up in a Muslim family and culture gets the same free will choice. Some people like me just can't seem to accept religion, while for others, it seems ingrained.

It's clear to me that the framing of the free will choice is substantially different in all these cases. In the christian home, the entire culture and family unit is devoted to leading me to make the right choice. My family and culture was apathetic to the choice. The Muslim family and culture is focused entirely on making the wrong choice. The non-inclined to accept religion seem to have to sacrifice all reasoning and logic. The naturally inclined people don't seem to have to make a choice at all, they seemed to just be born believing in God. I contend that there is no ubiquitous Free Will choice.

This passage in Romans says to me that God decides who will or will not have a hardened heart against God. If God decides, who am I to question that?

VivaHedone · 02-28-2003, 02:35 PM

There is no free will. It is an impossibility. Actions are caused by thoughts, and we have no control over our thoughts. We merely hear our thoughts, which gives us the illusion of control. I am just the sensations I experience - how could I have control? For instance, I cannot help not believing in god. My brain asseses the evidence and reaches a conclusion, which I cannot avoid. How could god punish me for this, as it is he that created my brain?

VivaHedone · 02-28-2003, 02:39 PM

If Magus55 has time, perhaps he could also answer some of the questions raised in this thread, as I had no response from a Christian when I first posted!

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02-25-2003, 07:59 PM	#11
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	God probably gives them each individual souls at the point when they no longer are one - but i don't know for sure.

02-25-2003, 08:08 PM	#12
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Originally posted by Magus55 God probably gives them each individual souls at the point when they no longer are one - but i don't know for sure. Now you're agnostic?

02-25-2003, 08:14 PM	#13
oriecat Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Portland OR USA Posts: 1,098	Hey Magus, since you're still here, please don't neglect my questions and comments above.

02-25-2003, 09:54 PM	#14
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Sorry thats a question i don't really know how to answer. It deals with omniscience which i said is the most mind boggling aspect of God's traits. Ill research it and ask around and get back to you if i find an answer.

02-26-2003, 09:14 AM	#16
BadBadBad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: WHERE GOD IS NOT!!!!! Posts: 4,338	Magus, what about my question? If, like in Romans 9, I'm created like a pot by an omniscient and omnipotent god with my heart hardened against God, to be dishonored by God, and to suffer his wrath for eternity, where does Free Will come into this? Do I get the same shot at Free Will as those christian pots that are blessed by God at birth to have the eternal honor, compassion, mercy, and the eternal bliss of God in heaven? Have I missed the boat trying to understand this passage from Romans? I've heard a lot about this Free Will thing. I was brought up in a mixed christian/atheist family. I've always wondered if I get the same free will choice as someone brought up in a righteous christian home. I've always wondered if a Muslim brought up in a Muslim family and culture gets the same free will choice. Some people like me just can't seem to accept religion, while for others, it seems ingrained. It's clear to me that the framing of the free will choice is substantially different in all these cases. In the christian home, the entire culture and family unit is devoted to leading me to make the right choice. My family and culture was apathetic to the choice. The Muslim family and culture is focused entirely on making the wrong choice. The non-inclined to accept religion seem to have to sacrifice all reasoning and logic. The naturally inclined people don't seem to have to make a choice at all, they seemed to just be born believing in God. I contend that there is no ubiquitous Free Will choice. This passage in Romans says to me that God decides who will or will not have a hardened heart against God. If God decides, who am I to question that?

02-28-2003, 02:35 PM	#17
VivaHedone Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Norwich, England Posts: 146	There is no free will. It is an impossibility. Actions are caused by thoughts, and we have no control over our thoughts. We merely hear our thoughts, which gives us the illusion of control. I am just the sensations I experience - how could I have control? For instance, I cannot help not believing in god. My brain asseses the evidence and reaches a conclusion, which I cannot avoid. How could god punish me for this, as it is he that created my brain?

02-28-2003, 02:39 PM	#18
VivaHedone Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Norwich, England Posts: 146	If Magus55 has time, perhaps he could also answer some of the questions raised in this thread, as I had no response from a Christian when I first posted!

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