Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mad Kally · 07-20-2002, 08:45 AM

Quote:

posted by Wildernesse:
For years, I thought that merely by opening the door when we were going down the road meant certain death�not that I might fall out and smash myself up or be run over by our own car, just suddenly dead in the seat.

*snip*

The point is: it doesn�t matter whether or not the little girl in the story really existed or really had a bad accident.

Seriously, I'm more confused than Tricia now..

Bree · 07-20-2002, 08:49 AM

Forget the "inerrant word of God" crap for now.

The Bible says certain things. If you are a Christian, then you subscribe to what the Bible says, as it is the moral code by which all Christians must live. Thus, if you have true faith, then you will take everything the Bible says without question.

God will settle all things in time, right? So having discussions of "this verse really means this" or "this verse is outdated" is irrelevant. The Bible says what it says. Either take it or leave it. If you don't like it, leave it. Don't waste your time making excuses for what is plainly written in black and white.

If you believe in God, Christ, and the Bible, then you believe in God, Christ, and the Bible.

excreationist · 07-20-2002, 08:53 AM

wildernesse:
Why did God inspire man to write all of those terrible stories about killing, warfare, rape, etc? Couldn't a good, loving God inspire stories with better examples?
-------------------------------
I don�t know. Why are humans so disposed to killing, rape, etc? Couldn�t a good, loving God create better humans? This is a better question I think. (My questions are from a slightly different perspective because I don�t just see the Bible as stories, but as histories handed down through tradition. The message is inspired�God wants us to be righteous people, reconciled with Him, and tells us how.)

It sounds like you're saying that those massacres were all caused by people... but if you read the Bible you'd see that it is mostly caused by or ordered by God. Examples include the Flood and <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Deut+20 %3A10-20&x=19&y=10" target="_blank">Deuteronomy 20:10-20</a>. See also these links about <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/intolerance.html" target="_blank">intolerance</a>, <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html" target="_blank">cruelty & violence</a> and <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/injustices.html" target="_blank">injustices</a> in the Bible.

QueenofSwords:
I've seen this referred to as "Cafeteria Christianity" - you take what you like, you leave what you don't. And of course, everyone likes something different. Fred Phelps, for example, likes the part about homosexuality being an abomination unto the lord.

Well it's pretty clear that it is in the Bible - God told the Israelites to put to death men who have homosexual sex. (Leviticus 20:13)

excreationist · 07-20-2002, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse:
Why does the Bible have to be literal to have truth?

This is also about killings directed by God in the Bible...

<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Numbers+15%3A32-36&NIV_version=yes&language=english" target="_blank">Numbers 15:32-36</a>:

Quote:

While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Do you think that literally happened? If not, is there still "truth" in that story? Maybe the moral is that God enforces his rules. (see Exodus 31:15 and Exodus 35:2)

Mad Kally · 07-20-2002, 09:01 AM

When I was a little girl, my parents told me I would burn in hell for eternity if I did anything bad. (including bad thoughts) They never did say it wasn't true.

KnightWhoSaysNi · 07-20-2002, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tricia:
As I've said in those threads, my main issue is how the God of love in the NT can be compatible with the God who oversaw so much murder and rape and overall abuse in the OT.

Tricia, this is likely the biggest reason why I cannot accept conservative Christianity. See my <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=52&t=000236" target="_blank">recent post</a>.

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Nightshade ]

HelenM · 07-20-2002, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse:
The point is: it doesn�t matter whether or not the little girl in the story really existed or really had a bad accident. It matters that I understood not to open the car door. As I got older, I realized that the story wasn�t the point�the lesson was the point, even if the little girl did exist and die. Changing from a literal belief in the story didn�t make the lesson untrue and everything my mother said questionable. My mother simply told me how to be safe in a way that was appropriate for me at that age.

I have read the threads about whether it's ok to tell your kids about Santa Claus and so I know that although some people think it's 'harmless', which is what you are also saying about what your parents told you, other people think it's immoral/unethical to knowingly lie to children.

So even though you are justifying what your parents did, some people here would say it was wrong of them to lie to you, pretending they really knew a kid who opened a car door and fell out and was killed and that marks on the ground really were caused by kids being run over because they didn't hold their parents' hands.

Where do you draw the line? Why is it ok to lie to kids? Why don't you think it matters?

Or do you, in some cases?

Would Rufus let you tell your kids stories that weren't true as long as they had the desired behavior-modification effect?

love
Helen

Buffman · 07-20-2002, 01:20 PM

wildernesse

Admittedly, my example above isn�t perfect. But it comes as close as I can to my point (I�ll try to clarify, if needed). Why does the Bible have to be literal to have truth?

Perhaps you should be asking, "Why does truth(the verifiable facts) have to be divinely inspired?"

Or you could ask the "Big" question. "Which mortals decided which books were divinely inspired?"

For anyone to pass the enterance exam for "Christian" qualification, they must believe that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected. IMHO, everything else is merely 2,000 years of window dressing. Thus, carrying it one step further, only humans who believe in the supernatural are even capable of becoming Christians...or any other religious type of adherent.

So, we now arrive at the most fundamental issue of all. "Why do humans want/need to believe in the supernatural?" In order to answer that question, humans would need to know how their Body(genetic senses)-Brain(hard drive)-Mind(gigo) actually interface within their given environment.

IMHO, humans are very primitive reasoning organisms, although with a slightly superior ability when compared to all other currently existing ones. It is the one advantage they hold and, unfortunately, tend to waste on supernatural beliefs/solutions/discussions.

I doubt that is of any help to Tricia, but perhaps it will aid her in putting all this in the kind of framework from which to better understand all the disparate views/opinions being presented. (It helped me when I was her age.)

HelenM · 07-20-2002, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wildernesse:
 Why should the Bible be taken literally?

I think the people who wrote it, intended it to be taken literally.

What do you think?

love
Helen

Tricia · 07-20-2002, 01:23 PM

Well geez, I feel loved.

That was a load of crap, David.

SINCERELY,

Tricia

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07-20-2002, 08:49 AM	#32
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	Forget the "inerrant word of God" crap for now. The Bible says certain things. If you are a Christian, then you subscribe to what the Bible says, as it is the moral code by which all Christians must live. Thus, if you have true faith, then you will take everything the Bible says without question. God will settle all things in time, right? So having discussions of "this verse really means this" or "this verse is outdated" is irrelevant. The Bible says what it says. Either take it or leave it. If you don't like it, leave it. Don't waste your time making excuses for what is plainly written in black and white. If you believe in God, Christ, and the Bible, then you believe in God, Christ, and the Bible.

07-20-2002, 08:53 AM	#33
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	wildernesse: Why did God inspire man to write all of those terrible stories about killing, warfare, rape, etc? Couldn't a good, loving God inspire stories with better examples? ------------------------------- I don�t know. Why are humans so disposed to killing, rape, etc? Couldn�t a good, loving God create better humans? This is a better question I think. (My questions are from a slightly different perspective because I don�t just see the Bible as stories, but as histories handed down through tradition. The message is inspired�God wants us to be righteous people, reconciled with Him, and tells us how.) It sounds like you're saying that those massacres were all caused by people... but if you read the Bible you'd see that it is mostly caused by or ordered by God. Examples include the Flood and <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Deut+20 %3A10-20&x=19&y=10" target="_blank">Deuteronomy 20:10-20</a>. See also these links about <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/intolerance.html" target="_blank">intolerance</a>, <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html" target="_blank">cruelty & violence</a> and <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/injustices.html" target="_blank">injustices</a> in the Bible. QueenofSwords: I've seen this referred to as "Cafeteria Christianity" - you take what you like, you leave what you don't. And of course, everyone likes something different. Fred Phelps, for example, likes the part about homosexuality being an abomination unto the lord. Well it's pretty clear that it is in the Bible - God told the Israelites to put to death men who have homosexual sex. (Leviticus 20:13)

07-20-2002, 09:01 AM	#35
Mad Kally Banned Join Date: May 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 3,764	When I was a little girl, my parents told me I would burn in hell for eternity if I did anything bad. (including bad thoughts) They never did say it wasn't true.

07-20-2002, 01:20 PM	#38
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	wildernesse Admittedly, my example above isn�t perfect. But it comes as close as I can to my point (I�ll try to clarify, if needed). Why does the Bible have to be literal to have truth? Perhaps you should be asking, "Why does truth(the verifiable facts) have to be divinely inspired?" Or you could ask the "Big" question. "Which mortals decided which books were divinely inspired?" For anyone to pass the enterance exam for "Christian" qualification, they must believe that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected. IMHO, everything else is merely 2,000 years of window dressing. Thus, carrying it one step further, only humans who believe in the supernatural are even capable of becoming Christians...or any other religious type of adherent. So, we now arrive at the most fundamental issue of all. "Why do humans want/need to believe in the supernatural?" In order to answer that question, humans would need to know how their Body(genetic senses)-Brain(hard drive)-Mind(gigo) actually interface within their given environment. IMHO, humans are very primitive reasoning organisms, although with a slightly superior ability when compared to all other currently existing ones. It is the one advantage they hold and, unfortunately, tend to waste on supernatural beliefs/solutions/discussions. I doubt that is of any help to Tricia, but perhaps it will aid her in putting all this in the kind of framework from which to better understand all the disparate views/opinions being presented. (It helped me when I was her age.)

07-20-2002, 01:23 PM	#40
Tricia Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: College Station, Tx Posts: 675	Well geez, I feel loved. That was a load of crap, David. SINCERELY, Tricia

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