Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Mathews · 07-02-2002, 08:50 PM

Hello Intensity,

Quote:

One question though:
As people get more liberal in their Christianity one of the first things to go is the exclusivity of 'we have the only truth'.

Why remain a christian after that?

David: I remain a Christian because I love God, love Jesus and am astonished by Jesus' example of love and self-sacrifice.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-02-2002, 08:57 PM

Hello emphryio,

Quote:

David Mathews has realized that some of it is silly. But to be an atheist would make him very unhappy. And David prefers to be happy. So why shouldn't he continue to believe what makes him happy? He may have to twist some things around a bit. But that's OK. He's not hurting anyone. Right?

David: I don't imagine that your analysis of my motives actually corresponds in any way to my actual motives. I don't even speculate about my own motives.

Quote:

No, you shouldn't believe things just because they make you happy. Because you're strong David. (Envision yourself being strong right here David and then feeling pride in yourself because your strong.)

David: Affirmations of the sort expressed above don't do much for me, I don't know if they do anything for you.

Quote:

There is no reason to be here talking because: If the belief in God comes from within, it is completely irrelevant to the rest of us. Because we don't particularly have strange voices/feelings/things? talking in our heads, that we think are someone other than ourselves.

David: I don't know what you are talking about.

Quote:

We are interested in discussing logic and facts, not vague feelings deep inside that only you, (and maybe some few million others), have.

David: Actually, several billion others. But if you want to talk abou logic and facts, let's do so.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-02-2002, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar:
[QB]"The tao which can be discussed is not the ultimate Tao." -Lao-Tzu, Tao Te Ching

I want to take up for David here, at least somewhat. & etc.

David: Thanks, Jobar, for your very kind comments. I have read the Tao Te-Ching several times and found the book inspiring, truly profound. The Dhammapada and the Bhagavad Gita are also profound and inspired as well.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Autonemesis · 07-02-2002, 09:05 PM

Hello David - I've been watching this thread for the past couple of days, and some things you said struck me as odd.

Quote:

David replied to Intensity:
Intensity As people get more liberal in their Christianity one of the first things to go is the exclusivity of 'we have the only truth'. Why remain a christian after that?
David I remain a Christian because I love God, love Jesus and am astonished by Jesus' example of love and self-sacrifice.

Quote:

But David also said in reply to Madmax:
Madmax Actually I knew all that, but I figured even the most liberal of Christians believed God was real and that he was some kind of supernatural entity.
David Would you say that for God to be real, God must be real in the sense that humans are real? If you are saying this, I must disagree. From my standpoint, humans are not real as we are only temporary and transitory beings.

David, if humans are not really real, then in what sense did Jesus sacrifice anything real? What does the blood of Christ mean if flesh and blood isn't really real?

Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream!

[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]</p>

David Mathews · 07-02-2002, 09:13 PM

Hello Rainbow Walking,

Quote:

David: That God is a fact beyond reality is a philosphical necessity.

Rw: Is it now? And what is it about philosophy that renders your god a necessity? I have a car and a job. These are genuine necessities to the furtherance of my life. Why do I need your god?

David: You have a car and a job, but you don't have your own life. That's why you need God.

Quote:

Rw: How did you determine that facts beyond reality are actually facts? Have you considered that they may not be factual?

David: Yes, I have considered that they may not be factual.

Quote:

rw: By what epistemological means did you gather these facts beyond reality?

David: Reality, as it is described and understood by humankind, appears incomplete, temporary and transitory. Therefore, the need for something beyond reality.

David: "Facts beyond reality" are necessary and unavoidable.

Quote:

1. Defined as everything contained within this universe that may, or may not, as yet be known by man to exist but nevertheless still exists within this universe?

Or

2. Defined as that which is contained in the conceptual understanding of any particular person at any given time and is limited to that person�s comprehension of his personhood within the parameter of his particular position in the universe?

Quote:

Saying they are necessary and unavoidable only adds, to your ever-growing list of baseless assertions, another mystical quality about your unique ability to �know� that these are indeed facts, in the true sense of that term. If they are necessary and un-avoidable then why did you have to seek them out?

David: Ideas which are necessary and unavoidable need not be self-evidently true. I suppose that there is a mystical element in this line of reasoning, if so that is not troublesome to me at all.

Quote:

Are you saying we have no choice but to accept your beliefs as true?

David: When I say that an idea, belief or concept of necessary and unavoidable, I am speaking of myself and not about anyone else. You do have a choice.

Quote:

Why don�t these same denominations just send ministers to effect miracle cures and leave modern medicine out of it?

David: That's a good question, perhaps you should address it to those denominations.

Best Regards,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-02-2002, 09:19 PM

Hello BH,

Quote:

Don't slap me David, but in a lot of ways the Church of Christ can be regarded as a cult like the Worldwide Church of God in its authoritarian structure and fear of every little opinion "like thing" being damnable error. Many preachers have risked their careers trying to fix this mistake and make it right somewhat.

David: I would never slap you. I believe in free expression, intellectual freedom and religious freedom.

I do not take counsel from Douglas Bender, and don't know enough about Helen's religion to agree or disagree with it.

My search for the truth is unrestricted by any of the boundaries which former generations of Christians imposed upon their own selves. My search for the truth is also unrestricted by any of the boundaries imposed by atheists upon themselves.

I don't answer to anyone except God. I have no intention of making everyone happy or satisfied with my religious beliefs.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Ryanfire · 07-02-2002, 09:28 PM

Quote:

David: Words are used in the Bible because words are all that we as humans have.

God seems pretty sloppy to let humans write "god's word".

The Old Testament:
It should be perfect if god used our language to describe all that he is, yet we have managed to show again and again what the christian bible has described him as is contradictory. God describes his perfection(truth) by using imperfection(fallacy)?

Now on to the The New Testament...

Religious people have the arrogance to modify god's word, the OT. Did Jesus come down to tell us "oh shit.. you have messed up god's word, you must make it right because god is all knowing and knew humans wouldn't get it right".

Jesus left it up to a select few of humans to write all his word down(OT), knowing they would get it wrong.

Oh but wait, jesus came down and made the NT. I didn't hear this in the news. Where was I?

Which bible do you follow, the OT or NT?

I don't see how you value words at all, knowing humans are stupid, helplessly depraved, and not perfect. You would base all of your beliefs on words of an imperfect bible, made by imperfect beings?

Quote:

David: Words are used to express attributes of God because words are all that we have.

David: Words are meaningless when used about God, but words are all that we have. Necessity compels us to speak about God because there are no other options.

Oh really??? words are used to express attributes, but words are also meaningless. So the bible is meaningless. Nice one David

Quote:

quote:
It seems to me only feelings are used in the place of god. We humans feel very lonely being on a small blue planet in the vastness of the universe. So we tend to look for something bigger to help us find our place in all of this.

David: True.

You're aware that you believe in god only because you're afraid of what might be out there(the unknown). Don't fear it David, that fear will not only bleed into the rest of your life, but it will set you up for failure in everyday practical life. Stop believing man is helplessly depraved, I really don't appreciate anyone believing that my existence really means nothing compared to the "awe" of god. You only make humans insignificant in the scheme of things.

Quote:

David: It is true that God does not do this, but we should recognize that God is not obligated to answer all of our questions or provide all of the information that we need to live our lives.

Then why must you rely upon a god to find answers of the unknown, do you not have reality, truth, logic, and reasoning? Start using them.

Quote:

David: We don't pray because we need to pray, we pray as a means of acknowledging our dependence upon God. We don't look to God to solve all of our problems, God has given us our problems so that we may solve them ourselves. Humans may or may not be totally depraved, nonetheless there is a universal tendency among humans to choose sin and selfishness over righteousness and sacrifice.

You just said in the above quotes, we should not depend on god, he is not obligated to give us the answers, but now you're saying we pray because we depend on god. And furthermore you're will to give a *may* attitude towards man being totally depraved, that means you have no faith in humans, so that means you have no faith in gods creation. How nice...

A universal tendacy?
So you percieve that world as being selfish and sinful. Once again, helplessly depraved. I'm an imperfect being but must always pick the path of righteousness and sacrifice. How do you ask for forgiveness David? Do you ask to be spared because you're a helplessly depraved human? Don't ever sin david.. god's right on top of you.

Quote:

David: I agree. I have faith in God and in myself.

God does not intervene or is obligated to give you the answers as you said. You must do it yourself. The only faith you need is in yourself, start believing in that which you are, human, and believe in others. We're all in the same boat David, in pursuit of truth, love, and understanding. Stop using god as your scapegoat for reality for the rights and wrongs in this world.

Peace.

Ryan.

David Mathews · 07-02-2002, 09:28 PM

Hello Splashing,

Quote:

Yes, I would renounce my atheism if you could prove that God most likely exists or that it is at least more likely than brain-in-a-laboratoryism.

If you proved that God most likely exists, I would call myself a theist.

If you could prove that God has a higher chance of existing than Brain-in-a-laboratoryism, or any other speculative scenario that is indistinguishable from a naturalistic scenario, I would consider myself agnostic.

David: Here is the argument: God is as likely to exist as all naturalistic, materialistic and otherwise atheistic scenarios because all such scenarios are speculative.

Quote:

Since we both agree that a reality in which your concept of God exists is indistinguishable from a reality where He does not, how can there be evidence of His existence?

David: The Universe need not display any evidence whatsoever of God's existence or character.

Quote:

Ok, if you can demonstrate something that materialism and naturalism can't explain, but supernaturalism can, and isn't merely a "God in the gaps" type assertion, I will call myself either an agnostic or a theist by the time I finish studying whatever this evidence is.

David: Does naturalism/materialism cannot explain the existence of the Universe or of human self consciousness.

Quote:

"Empty and hopeless" are subjective judgements, and are not proof of a deity in any case. An ugly truth is nonetheless a truth.

David: Perhaps atheism is not the truth at all?

Quote:

Atheism rejects theism for lack of proof, just like you yourself reject Brain-in-a-laboratoryism for lack of proof.

David: Atheism may reject theism for lack of proof, but that in itself does not demonstrate that atheism is truth.

Quote:

David, social facors in particular push us towards christianity, I don't understand how someone could deny that!

David: I did not deny it.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Theli · 07-02-2002, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:
[QB]Jobar

To be a pantheist seems to mean that God has no personhood at all except we are all somehow God (but so are the worms and trees)

If David believes in a personal transcendant God then I'd say he's a theist, definitely.

If he is not convinced that God is transcendently above His creation, and yet he believes God is more than the sum of the universe, I think that makes him a Panentheist.

OTOH maybe I don't have a clue what I'm talking about

Anyone feel free to set me straight!

love
Helen

I've never understood pantheism.
What's the difference between pantheism and deism?
And what's the difference between pantheism and atheism other than taking the word "god" and slapping it on something it was not originally intended for?

Theli · 07-02-2002, 11:07 PM

David...

Quote:

Me:
You seem pretty certain of this argument posted, you also seem pretty certain of god's existence.

David:
Yes, I am certain.

David, you are too easy.
Here I have a previous statement made by you that would refute this new statement.
"No one knows enough for absolute certainty, no one knows enough for even marginal certainty."
Am I the only one here who sees a contradiction here?

Quote:

Of course we can know things. I was not speaking about knowledge, I was speaking about belief systems.

Beliefsystems are not based on knowledge?
Don't you have any knowledge of god?
Haven't you read the bible?
Isn't that knowledge?
You are not making any sense at all.

Quote:

Beliefs systems are useless are, strictly speaking, all belief systems that an individual does not utilize. All comparative judgments of belief systems are subjective and doubtful.

If I am not a Hindu, Hinduism is not no use to me. Yet for a billion Hindus, Hinduism useful and essential for their understanding of the Universe.

This sounds really bigoted.
So you wouldn't listen to any arguments or claims taken from Hinduism just because the person talking to you is a hindu and not a christian?
Just because he doesn't have the same "label" as you his words are automaticly ignored by you?
I hope not.
Religions can learn alot from eachother, but first the must obandon that notion of being "the religion with all the right answers".

Quote:

All belief systems, all philosophies and all sciences contain contradictions. Contradictions are a byproduct of the limitations of human intellect.

I would say that contradictions are a byproduct of lack of knowledge. Why do you accept contradictory statements as being true?
I have already stated a huge contradiction regarding the existence of an unreal being (god).

Quote:

Yes, God is not real. Words such as "real" are not meaningful when spoken in reference to God.

Excacly. And you know why.
Because your god only exist inside your own head. That's why his nature is contradictory, that's why he is not real, and that's why you can't tie his existence or attributes to the world around you.
This all describes properties of an imaginary being.

Quote:

God's qualities/actions/attributes only exists in the human mind in the sense that all words which describe such qualities/actions/attributes utterly fail to convey any knowledge when used within the context of divinity.

How could such knowledge be acquired then, if the observed being descibed with those attributes don't have them?
Was all those words written in the bible describing god ultimately false?
Once again, you are trying to dodge the issue with rhetoric. Trying to make your belief in god magic and translucent.

Quote:

It is better to think of all such words as allegories or analogies rather than interpret them in a strict literal fashion.

Including existence?

Quote:

If you conclude that I am a "strong atheist" you have failed to grasp the implications of your argument:

All you have done is try to hide your imaginary friend, pushing his so far beyond reality that he doesn't even exist.

Quote:

God is not "real" because God is not contained within our concept of reality; God does not "exist" in the sense that physical things exist, because from the ultimate perspective everything within the physical universe and the physical universe itself are temporary and transitory in their existence.

What does "temporary" have to do with existence?
"Exist outside of our reality" is a paradox.

The definition of existence:
---To have actual being; be real.
Your definition of god:
---Is not real, cannot be said to exist by us.
Definition of strong atheism:
---The belief that no gods exist.

You have also made it clear that no claims from other beliefsystems has any impact on you. So you can't believe in any other yet to be named gods.

So in conclution - You are a strong atheist by definition.

Quote:

All the supposed contradictions which you find in the God concept are in reality manifestations of the difference between God and our reality.

Yes, I agree. It's the difference between the god in your mind and the reality around you.
That's where your god is hiding, in your own mind. Where things don't have to be real.

Quote:

God does not share any attributes with the Universe because the Universe is not God.

Excacly, including existence.
The god you claim to believe in does not exist in the reality around you. As a figure of your imagination it doesn't have to adopt to logic.
Simply because your beliefsystem is not based on logic.

You claim to be a christian, and believe in a being that exist in your own head. Wich you now have admitted (he is not real), and therefore technically speaking - you are a strong atheist.

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