Pyrrho

First of all, the vast majority of sperm cells and egg cells never become a human being at all (just like the vast majority of tubes of paint and canvasses never become great works of art). Secondly, you obviously have not been keeping up with scientific advances in reproductive technologies. A sperm cell isn't needed at all.

Daleth

I think that we already rely on medical ethics and their self-monitoring boards for a hell of a lot. There are laws behind medical practice for sure, but their boards prevent a need for every complex medical choice (which may have to be made quickly) to go before a court. The best answer I can come up with is that people make sure the AMA and whomever else know that these are important issues to us, and that they should be monitoring cases of late abortions carefully. I think (though not certainly) that this is already happening. I think that a doctor who performs an abortion at 7 months for no medical reason is already putting his or her license on the line because a medical decision was made that was not in the best interests of the patient. That's pretty much how it worked when abortion was illegal, anyway. It was the doctors who risked losing not just their careers but also jail time.

You'd have a hell of a time finding a doctor who'd do it if you could find one at all, and that a lot of them if you asked would inform psych, because it is self-destructive (an abortion risks the mother's well-being at this stage) and they'd fear that yours was going to be the next baby in a dumpster or the woods. A woman who suddenly wants an abortion this late has got some kind of problem... something's happened to her to change her mind or she's been off her psych medication for too long. It's not sane to decide to go through the first 6 months of pregnancy and then decide you want to risk your life and future fertility to get rid of the baby.

It might not sound like perfect protection, but I don't think it's possible for us to provide that anyway. If this were a problem in the country, if this sort of thing were running rampant, then I'd say maybe we need to legislate. But there's no evidence that it is a problem. Doctors go generally make decisions that are the best they know for their patients' well-being and are certainly keen on keeping their license. Given what seems to be the current state of affairs, legislation would possibly punish one or two abortions a year if any, but it would drag hundreds of already miserable women or couples into court to defend why they were going to have to make (or already had made) one of the hardest choices of their lives. I can't imagine, after going through something that physically and emotionally painful, having to pay for a lawyer and stand in a courtroom and explain why I wasn't a murderer because I put an end to the life of the child I'd always wanted since it had a defect which was incompatible with life and if I gave birth it would have killed both of us. We couldn't require the court to hear the case before the abortion happened because we'd be risking lives in the waiting. So we wouldn't be saving any lives, only potentially providing a deterent. And the woman who wants to have a late abortion for no reason isn't thinking right, she's out of her mind for whatever reason, and is willing to risk her own life to get rid of this baby. I don't think a possible jail sentence is going to deter someone in that morbid state of mind.

ex-xian

I posted this email exchange a few hours ago, but it was deleted by Grizzly. Here it is again (with his permission) without the sender's name.
__________________________________________________ _________

I just received this email from ***:

And here is my reply:
Any comments?

Also, since the content of this thread has been moving toward the emotional implications of the termination of a pregnancy (voluntary and involuntary), I think I'll go to , this thread to discuss the moraltiy of abortion.

Once again, my condolences to Daleth. You are a very brave person.

Daleth

Well I was about to say that it depends on whether you think abortion is a women's health issue or, at least in some cases, an issue involving 2 people, one with power over the other. But that would be wrong as well. If you have an opinion about a women's health issue (for instance, far too many women die of heart disease because a lot of medical professionals think of this as a man's disease) you still have every right to have an interest and opinion about that issue.

Sorry about that. I did not mean to take over the thread and change the subject. I don't think, however, that you can suss out this subject without considering emotional impact of either allowing or disallowing abortion. Emotional abuse is a moral issue. Central to the abortion debate is whether the government has the right to impose emotional abuse and physical harm upon one person so that a fetus (be it a person or a non-person) gets an increased chance (by no means a certainty) of being born.

Not at all. We deal with whatever we get, or we die. You're only brave if you have a choice.

Shadowy Man

It depends. Was she forced into having sex? If not, did she know that sex leads to pregnancy?

ex-xian

That's a great point, and one I hadn't considered before.

[b]No, don't apologize. Too many pro-lifers/anti-abortionists/anti-choicers don't consider the impact of what they say and do has on the women involved.
No. You are a brave person, no matter what you say.

Daleth

Yes, but she was taking birth control and didn't know that the medication her doc just gave her was going to interfere with the birth control pills. Now is it the doctor's fault?

What penalty shall we impose upon the man who also knew that sex would cause pregnancy? It was certainly his fault too, yet the penalty is hers. Or do we just accept Nature's "moral judgement" that it is right and good for a woman to suffer the consequences of an act that 2 people committed while the man can simply walk away? Should we always accept the "moral judgements" given by nature, or can we, as beings who can think and understand, try to improve upon nature's judgement, try to create a greater equality?

Loren Pechtel

This comes down to punishing the woman rather than protecting the fetus.

openeyes

I think those of you who can never experience pregnancy and giving birth should be glad there are woman like Daleth who can give you an unique perspective on the issues involved. I don't think you should not be entitled to an opinion because you're male, but as a woman who has experienced a spontaneous abortion and two live births, I think you need to try to get a handle on the woman's perspective. Even woman who have never been pregnant must deal with the possibility (even if it's remote) every time she has sex unless some permanent type of birth control is in place. Pregnancy and giving birth and raising children are MAJOR events--to say that either you just live with it (an unplanned pregnancy) or just give the baby up if you don't want it doesn't show much understanding of the scope of the impact on a woman's life.

I don't think Daleth intended her story to become the issue, but rather to give one real-life perspective. What good is it to argue morals if we leave people out of it?

Shadowy Man

I think they're called child support payments.

Or does it come down to people being able to handle the consequences of their actions?