EstherRose

Can you put aside your aetheist beliefs because someone finds them offensive? Neither can I put aside my Christian beliefs because you find them offensive. I offered an apology for the way they are unpleasant and hurtful to you, but I can not cast aside my beliefs. If you don't accept my apology, that is your choice.

Actually Corried ten Boom was in the concentration camp because she kept many Jews hidden and safe in her house. Not enough Christians, or others, responded to the holocaust. They will have to deal with their guilt, and many will suffer and have suffered for that. The holocaust is not the only example of atrocities in this world. Take for example some of the reports from Africa of wars, killings and so on. There are famines, genocides all over the world at the moment. Are you personally doing anything to ease the suffering of those atrocities?

Not all Christians agree with him. I personally voted democrat and very likely will again.

EstherRose

Someone mentioned OT prophecies fulfilled in Jesus. I have a list of 45 major prophecies but they are rather tedious to type out. Here are just the first 20. I’ll do the rest later.

Born of woman

Genesis 3
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [1] and hers;
he will crush [2] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

Galatians 4
4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,

Descendant of Abraham

Gen 12
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."

Gen 12
7 The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring [1] I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD , who had appeared to him.

Matthew 1
1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:

Galatians 3
16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"[7] meaning one person, who is Christ.

From the tribe of Judah

[color=darkblue]Gen 49
10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
until he comes to whom it belongs [3]
and the obedience of the nations is his.

Hebrews 7
14For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

Revelation 5
5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."[color]

From the house/family of David

2 Samuel 7
13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men.

Luke 1
31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

Romans 1
3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,

Born of a virgin

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you [3] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [4] will call him Immanuel.

Matthew 1:22-3
All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[4] --which means, "God with us."

Called Emmanuel

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you [3] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [4] will call him Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23
"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[4] --which means, "God with us."

He had a forerunner.

Isa 40:3-5
A voice of one calling:
"In the desert prepare
the way for the LORD [1] ;
make straight in the wilderness
a highway for our God. [2]
4 Every valley shall be raised up,
every mountain and hill made low;
the rough ground shall become level,
the rugged places a plain.
5 And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
and all mankind together will see it.
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

Malachi 3:1
"See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.

Matthew 3:1-3
In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea 2and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." 3This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.'

Luke 1:76-8
76And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
77to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins,
78because of the tender mercy of our God,
by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven


Born in Bethlehem

Micah 5:2
But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans [2] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins [3] are from of old,
from ancient times. [4

Matt. 2:5-6
In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:
6" 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'[4] "

Luke 2:4-6
4So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born,

He was worshipped by wise men and given gifts.

Psalms 72:10-11
The kings of Tarshish and of distant shores
will bring tribute to him;
the kings of Sheba and Seba
will present him gifts.
11 All kings will bow down to him
and all nations will serve him.

Isa. 60:3, 6, 9
3Nations will come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your dawn.

6 Herds of camels will cover your land,
young camels of Midian and Ephah.
And all from Sheba will come,
bearing gold and incense
and proclaiming the praise of the LORD .

9 Surely the islands look to me;
in the lead are the ships of Tarshish, [1]
bringing your sons from afar,
with their silver and gold,
to the honor of the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel,
for he has endowed you with splendor

Matthew 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

In Egypt for a season.

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.

Matthew 2:15
where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."[6]

His birthplace was a place where infants were slaughtered.

Jeremiah 31:15
This is what the LORD says:

"A voice is heard in Ramah,
mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because her children are no more."

Matt.2:16
16When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

Zealous for the Father.

Psalm 69:9
for zeal for your house consumes me,
and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.

John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Filled with God’s Spirit.

Isa. 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD

Luke 4:18-9
The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."[

A mighty healer.

Isa. 35:5-6
Then will the eyes of the blind be opened
and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
6 Then will the lame leap like a deer,
and the mute tongue shout for joy.
Water will gush forth in the wilderness
and streams in the desert.

Matt 8:16-7
When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
"He took up our infirmities
and carried our diseases

Ministered to the Gentiles.

Isa 9:1-2
Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan-

2 The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death [1]
a light has dawned.

Isa 42:1-3
Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him
and he will bring justice to the nations.
2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice

Matt. 4:13-16
13Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali-- 14to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah:
15"Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali,
the way to the sea, along the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles--
16the people living in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death
a light has dawned."

Matt 12:17-21
17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
18"Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
19He will not quarrel or cry out;
no one will hear his voice in the streets.
20A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
till he leads justice to victory.
21In his name the nations will put their hope."

Spoke in parables.

Isa 6:9-10
He said, "Go and tell this people:

" 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [1]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

Matt. 13:10-15
The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.

Rejected by the Jews.

Psalms 69:8
I am a stranger to my brothers,
an alien to my own mother's sons;

Isa. 53:3
He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

John 1:11
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

John 7:5
For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

Triumphal entry into Jerusalem on a donkey.

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion!
Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem!
See, your king [2] comes to you,
righteous and having salvation,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey

Matthew 21:4-5
4This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
5"Say to the Daughter of Zion,
'See, your king comes to you,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Praised by children

Psalms 8:2
From the lips of children and infants
you have ordained praise [2]
because of your enemies,
to silence the foe and the avenger.

Matthew 21:16
"Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him.
"Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read,
" 'From the lips of children and infants
you have ordained praise'

He was the rejected cornerstone.

Psalms 118:22-23
22 The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;
23 the LORD has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes.

Matt. 21:42
42Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone[8] ;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'

Calzaer

But works are still done. And if works aren't done, that means you're not going to heaven. Requiring works as a litmus test rather than a pre-requisite is only dissimilar in an academic sense; there's no difference in practice. If I'm not doing works, I'm not saved, and I'm not getting into heaven. It doesn't matter which is the cause and which is the effect. If works are not in evidence, then salvation is false.

Furthermore, allowing God to work through you is a work in and of itself. If I accept Jesus's allegedly free gift of eternal life, but ignore all the callings he sends me to do works, am I going to heaven? No. I have to do what he tells me to do if it's "something God does with us". Just like Magus, you're proving my point for me.

***

As for the OT prophecies of Jesus, they've all been refuted and re-refuted and re-re-refuted several times. They're hardly 100% convincing. Further, and perhaps more importantly, Jesus FAILED to fulfill several of the prophecies. The Messiah is supposed to fulfill ALL of them. Which ones? Well, even though Max will chide me and jump on his "the Bible doesn't actually say this, BUT" horse (which only works for Catholics, because either everything we need to know is the Bible, or it's not, you can't have it both ways), Jesus was named "Jesus", not "Emmanuel". Isaiah 7:14 is one of the clearest prophecies in the entire cryptic Bible, and it states directly that the messiah's mother will call him Emmanuel. But Mary called him Jesus.

Now, Max contends (without scriptural evidence) that "Emmanuel" was a job title, not a name, and Mary called him that at some point but it was off-the-record and never written down. Or maybe that was Magus. The apologists all get mixed together.

Soul Invictus

Part and parcel, I could agree with this reply. What I find hard for a lot of Christians is that they automatically assume that everyone is like them, and have to experience some sort of conviction before they want to start doing good deeds. Some people naturally bear fruitful and giving lives towards others, thus not waiting for a religious experience to make them want to do what should be natural.

agnawstick

I am getting repetitive here, but isn't there a simple test in essence for Christians to show their faith? Jesus said to renounce possessions, love your enemies, judge not lest ye be judged, give away everything to anybody who asks, etc...

If you really really really (3 reallys even) believe that Jesus is the Messiah, he is speaking for God, why don't Christians do it? Blinding faith in Jesus means following the Sermon on the Mount.

Did Jesus say those words? Did Jesus mean those words? Is he the Messiah? Did he expect Matthew to keep collecting taxes and living in luxury until he was ready? Did he exhort the crowds at the mountain to hold onto their possessions until they were good and ready to part with them? No. He said to give up all earthly possessions now, as soon as you heard his words.

If you genuinely believe that the Christian God created life, the universe, and everything, and that Jesus was ordering you to do this, I would do it. It is good advice to begin with in the first place.
Unless you believe that there is no afterlife, Jesus/God will not provide for you if you let go of your belongings.

Gandhi, who was influenced by Tolstoy, tried to pattern his life on the Sermon on the Mount. If a Hindu could make the effort, why can't a Christian actually do the same? A: It is damned hard. If you had genuine faith that Jesus commanded you to do this, and not platitudes, one would do it. Period. Not tomorrow, not tithing 10%, not just heading to church Sunday. One would fall on their knees, repent, divest their wealth, embrace their enemies, and the rest of what the Sermon on the Mount requires. It doesn't happen. Because there is no faith. There must be works with faith. Because if one has genuine faith, one does the works that Jesus(The one allegedly you believe in) asked you to do. If Gandhi was a christian, I would not reject him as a true christian.
I would say, you believed in Christ, you did what christ told you, and you acted upon it. I disagree, but wow, I find no fault in you.
For the rest of the lot though....

River

-Red Dave

As long as a Jew adheres to the Law ( Holy Taurat/ Al-Furqan) is Righteous and Observes the Tawhid ( Holy Unity).....as long as a Jew does not commit shirk (idolatry) and associate Partners with G-d.....as long as a Jew is not antagonistic to the Prophets of other Traditions ( Zoroaster/(Zorothrusta) ,Confucias, Jesus Christ( Isa Masih), Muhammad [ may peace be upon all].... then he will go to Heaven.

Heaven is not reserved for the followers of only one tradition.

Calzaer

Ok, I have some free time now, I'm going to go through some of these.

Wow, he was born from a WOMAN! That's completely unprecedented! Nobody's even been born from a woman before! It's nice to know that every single man in history has allegedly fulfilled a messianic prophecy. But doesn't Genesis 3 (if it's actually a prophecy, which it doesn't look like) imply that Jesus and Mary would have enmity between then?




Matthew 1
1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
[/quote]

I'm surprised they can determine he was descended from Abraham, since even the NT authors can't agree on his lineage. Compare Matt 1:6-16 to Luke 3:21-31. Aside from David on one end and Jesus on the other, there are only four names in common between the two lists. But sure, I'll give you that, he was descended from Abraham. So we've got every single person listed in Matt 1:6-16 and Luke 3:21-31 fulfilling two messianic prophecies (I assume they were all born of women? Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Quote:

Galatians 3 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"[7] meaning one person, who is Christ.

How do we know this "one person" wasn't, say, Eliakim or Zorobabel? They were descended of Abraham, too. Come to think of it, so was James (Jesus's brother (or half-brother, or whatever)). And really, since Joseph had nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus's conception, and Josehp (not Mary) is the one with the link to Abraham, how can they say he's a descendant? There's not one drop of Joseph's blood anywhere in Jesus!

Really? How odd then, that Isreal's first king wasn't from the tribe of Judah, but the tribe of Benjamin (Acts 13:21).

According to Matthew's geneology, Jesus isn't related to Judah (Juda) at all. Luke says he is, tho.

Yeah, but nobody can agree on just how. Something tells me that Luke and Matthew weren't collaborating when they attempted to force Jesus into fulfilling this prophecy by tracing his lineage back to David.

This verse directly contradicts the messianic prophecy at the end of Isaiah 7:14.

Isn't the "descendant of Abraham" prophecy already fulfilled by the "descendant of David" prophecy? How do you get away with counting this as two separate prophecies when David was Abraham's son? Nobody could be descended from David without being descended from Abraham.


Another interesting note: Matthew lists Jeconiah as an ancestor of Jesus. But according to the prophecy in Jeremiah 22:28-30, this EXPLICITLY DISQUALIFIES Jesus from being the messiah!

He clearly FAILED to fulfill that prophecy. HE WAS NEVER CALLED IMMANUEL.

Further, there's quite a bit of disagreement between Hebrew scholars about the correct translation of the word "almah". Everywhere EXCEPT the Bible, almah means "young woman", not "virgin". "Bethulah" is the Hebrew word for "virgin". The Bible seems to use the two words interchangably... but doesn't God say that he's not the author of confusion?

Who will call him Emmanuel? Mary didn't, as required in Isaiah.

BUT NOBODY EVER CALLED HIM THAT! How can Matthew claim this was fulfilled when Jesus was NEVER CALLED IMMANUEL?

So did every other Jewish revolutionary in the first century. All this does is disqualify the FIRST guy who does messianic work. Hell, Paul fulfills this prophecy (as well as the one about being born of a woman!) just as well as Jesus does. Once again, we have a prophecy that is very very easy to fit anyone at all into.

Also odd to note that Mark says John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy in Malachi 3:1 and 4:1,5. Malachi says Elijah will be the forerunner... but John the Baptist denies being Elijah in John 1:21.

Excuse me? Try reading your own book. "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 isn't referring to the town, but to the *clan* of Bethlehem, (the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah, as explained in 1 Chronicles 2:18, 2:50-52, and 4:4). Further, Micah goes on to say in verse 5:6 that the person being prophecized with be a military leader who will kick the crap out of the Assyrians! Did Jesus go to war while the apostles weren't looking?

Are you even reading these before you post them? This part obviously didn't come true. Hasn't yet. Is unlikely to ever.

This is another place where Matthew intentionally misquotes OT scripture to try and force Jesus into fulfilling prophecies. This one isn't even a prophecy at all: it's history! It's a reference to the Hebrew exodus!

...except that never happened. You'd think someone would've written something down about Herod killing all the kids in the kingdom, especially since he wasn't a particularly popular king. We have large tomes ranting about the evil deeds of Herod, but not one mentions the wholesale slaughter of small children.

Oh, wait, I'm sorry, I forgot. Where actual history and the Bible conflict, lack of evidence is the same thing as conclusive evidence.

Another prophecy that just about everyone can fulfill. These are pretty general prophecies! You'd think God, being God, could get a little more specific!

Is this even a prophecy? Or is it literature? I don't have time to look up the context, but seeing how little context is used in the rest of these, I'm very suspicious.

Oh, good! We know he fulfilled this one because he told us so himself! No, that's not circular at all.

Ever notice that Elijah performed every single healing miracle Jesus did? He even comes closer to fulfilling some of the other prophecies than Jesus, and is not of a lineage that specifically excludes him from being the messiah, like Jesus is.

Self-fulfilling. Anyone can read "My boy will go preach to the gentiles" then go preach to the gentiles and claim to be fulfilling a prophecy. And forget the fact that he wasn't the only one to minister to the gentiles. Once again, God gets very vauge for a guy who'll smite the users of incorrectly made incense.

Self-fulfilling again. Beyond that, I'll give it to you: Jesus taught in parables so that they wouldn't understand what he was saying, just like it says in Isaiah.

Gee, I wonder why he would be rejected by the Jews? Maybe because God told the Jews to reject him in Deut 13?

And nobody ever explained how he managed to be riding on a donkey and a colt at the same time.. but sure, that one would be hard to fulfill intentionally if you don't know how to ride two animals at once.

According to my Bible, the children were "crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David..." That doesn't sound much like praise, but I could be wrong.

Just because he can quote it doesn't mean he fulfilled it. Wouldn't this count as the same prophecy as "Rejected by the Jews"? How do you get off counting this as a separate prophecy? You can't be accepted by your chosen people and still be a "rejected cornerstone".

Javaman

Thank you Calzaer for that. I'd like to add some prophesies (with thanks to Fr. Andrew) that didn't pan out:

Isaiah 2
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

Isaiah 11
15 The LORD will dry up
the gulf of the Egyptian sea;
with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand
over the Euphrates River.
He will break it up into seven streams
so that men can cross over in sandals.

Ezekiel 47
12 Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not wither, nor will their fruit fail. Every month they will bear, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will serve for food and their leaves for healing."


Probably so commonplace in the time of Jesus that nobody thought to write these happenings down...

ReasonableDoubt

I don't know why some Christians dont believe Judaism is legitimate - I know several that hold to the belief that Jews are under their own covenant with God - Christ died to allow Gentiles in- so to speak. How can God break the covenant with his own people? How could he change the rules, and never bother to let them know?
Even Paul implies that Jews are saved in these verses- God
s call being irrevocable - God does not go back on his promise to the Jewish people.


Rom 11: 25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[6] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[7]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Magus55

Or maybe they are future prophecies that will happen when Jesus returns. There are hundreds of prophecies in the Bible - 3 not being fulfilled yet is hardly a refute.