Thomas Metcalf

Atheists are, in general, smarter than theists. Study after study confirms the inverse correlation between intelligence and religiosity. Would you like me to provide you some sources?

Thomas Metcalf

But what reason have we to accept the principle "for every world w with perfection A to degree u, there is a world w1 with A to u + 1"? That seems to beg the question; it is, in itself, an assertion that there is no best possible world.

Your position also seems to require that there is an infinity of possible worlds, which might entail other problems.

Thomas Metcalf

Plantinga does indeed see a problem with evil, which is why he has spent so much time trying to explain it. He does not see it as a prohibitive problem for theism, but he does notice that it requires some argumentative work.

Neither. I am claiming that God and gratuitous evil are implicitly contradictory. Further, I am claiming that gratuitous evils probably exist.

Thomas Metcalf

Please share a few, then.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Thomas,
<blink>...<blink>.........<blink&gt ;

Absolutely.


SOMMS

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

You don't understand.

Implicity contradictory means two statements are just that...implicitly contradictory. For example:
1-X
2-~X
Statements 1 and 2 are implicitely contradictory.

You probably mean God and Evil are explicitly contradictory. An example:
1-X
2-Y
3-a bunch of statements derived from X
4-~Y
5-There it is not the case X and Y.

Regardless...

Are you claiming that evil actually exists?

SOMMS

Philip Osborne

"I assume you argue by transfinite induction - i.e. u can be any transfinite ordinal, not just a finite number.

I'm definitely with you so far. In fact, your argument with a twist can be applied to show that evil is not just the absence of good."

I'm sorry if I'm not familiar with the mathematical terminology; I'm only a junior in high school, after all. I'm not sure I understand your suggestion about the Thomistic position that evil has no ontological status. At any rate, denying St. Thomas' position on the nature of evil doesn't seem prima facie at odds with my argument.

"However it does not seem absurd to conclude from this and other set-theoretic arguments that the concept of omnipotence itself is absurd."

Unfortunately, set-theory is at present beyond my level. But I would first need to know your definition of "omnipotence."

"But what reason have we to accept the principle "for every world w with perfection A to degree u, there is a world w1 with A to u + 1"? That seems to beg the question; it is, in itself, an assertion that there is no best possible world."

It is intended to make intelligible the idea that there can be no best possible world. The "best possible world," at first blush, seems perfectly plausible, and might, under these circumstances, seem silly to deny. My assertion is intended to show how it is plausible to think there is no best possible world. At worst, my argument shows that there is no possible way to decide whether or not a best possible world is metaphysically possible. In that case, the question of whether or not there is a best possible world becomes precisely the question of whether or not God exists (since there would seem to be no other ways of deciding between the two proposals); if this is so, then it becomes obvious that the argument from "this is not the best possible world" cannot do what it was intended to do, which is to answer the question of God's existence in the negative.

"Your position also seems to require that there is an infinity of possible worlds, which might entail other problems."

You would have to elaborate on this suggestion; I don't see any obvious modal problems from thinking there are infinitely many possible worlds independantly of the idea of whether or not there is a best possible world. It would seem highly unusual to suggest that the number of possible contingencies is somehow finite.

Sincerely,

Philip

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Thomas,
Sure.

1-Philosophical...Prime Mover
2-Empirical...Fine Tuning
3-Moral...Objective Morality
4-Historical...the resurrection of Jesus Christ
5-Personal...my own experience of God.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Thomas Metcalf

<a href="http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-thinkingchristians.htm" target="_blank">http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-thinkingchristians.htm</A>

Thomas Metcalf

You have your terms backwards. The former example is explicit contradiction, and the latter is implicit. I claim that God and gratuitous evil are implicitly contradictory; that is, if you add certain necessary truths, you will derive a group of formally contradictory sentences.

Regardless, I am claiming that "gratuitous evil" as apologists use the term probably exists. That is, suffering that has no morally greater purpose.