Brahe

I see this challenge every couple of months, and despite such a willingness on the part of the atheist to believe, I've never seen the challenge fulfilled. Heck, even though theists go on and on about the power of their Lord and how the evidence is all around us, they rarely even attempt the challenge!

So, has anyone ever seen this challenge successfully completed? I mean, what's the deal with the theists? Are their assertions regarding the evidence and power of prayer just a bunch of hot air? If even they realize this, then why are they even believers in the first place?!

OCLonghorn

You are proposing the scenario where my computer becomes self-aware, and gradually ceases to do my bidding because it doubts my existence? Well, I am not god (I always have to remind myself of that), but here are some of my potential reactions (after I get over my initial freak-out and finish composing my lengthy dissatisfied customer letter to Dell):
1) If the request is simple enough, then I provide it and go on with my business.
2) If the request is not simple, but could be completed, OR if it could not be completed, I might respond in some way that would be convenient to me...even if it didn't comply with the request.

What I would NOT do, is to resent my computer(s) for asking, simply fail to respond at all, and to allow some of my computers to "trust" that I exist and work properly and others to "doubt" my existence and stop working for me.

On second thought, maybe you're right. All I know about quantum computers comes from dumbed-down books like "Prey" (how ironic, now that I think of it - "Pray"), but what would I care if I had a swarm of computers that serve my function and a certain small percentage of them didn't comply with the general directive? As long as my GD was being performed satisfactorily, I would pay no attention to the infidel computers. Only if the performance level was being affected would I care to troubleshoot the system. FURTHER, what if the infidel computers STILL performed my GD, but only because they independently value the GD, not because of my "divine" mandate? If I noticed at all, I certainly wouldn't care.

Maybe, after all these years, I'm talking myself into some form of deism...Nah.

7thangel

Please read again the post, you again fell to the same error. The same show of ignorance of the godhead.

By the way, the word "at least" implies that their is really that not much effort.

fishbulb

You might want to bear in mind that an atheist doesn't understand that God is the potter or anything else. An atheist doesn't believe that God exists at all. If you don't understand this fact, none of your responses are going to address the issue. The argument is really quite simple. If God exists and if God is so powerful, it should be a trivial matter for him to make us believe. The fact that we do not believe therefore suggests that God does not exist, that he lacks the power to make us believe, or that he really doesn't care whether or not we believe.

These tests are not set up to defy God; the people who propose them don't believe God is any more real than the Tooth Fairy. What they are saying is, if God wants them to believe he exists, providing evidence of the type they specify would be pretty convincing.

They aren't making demands of God; they don't believe that there is a God to make demands of. Their statements aren't addressed to God; if God really does exist as Christians say he does, he presumably already knows what sort evidence would convince each of us.

These statements aren't addressed to God. They are addressed to you, the theist. They are meant to try to make you understand what sort of evidence would convince them that God did, or at least likely did, exist.

7thangel

The scenario is not really like it. There is no such thing as "customers" in the scenario of our potter-clay relationship with God.

This one, in the long run, will be a debate of the existence of evil. My answer is that there is a necessity of the existence of evil. It is a requirement for men to have widsom.

Kvalhion

I think its pretty amusing that Xtian goes through so much trouble to try to assert such a basic test isn't "honest". The fact is, Xtian, that any test you come up with to "prove" the existence of god or the supernatural is going to necessarily be one that is in no way material. The only tests you are happy with are tests which results are "true" if the person convinces himself that the test worked.

In this test, belief or unbelief of the person holding the test is not a relavent factor. The results could easily be given to an independant party before the guess is compared.

The reality is that no test such as this will ever be accepted by someone like you, Xtian. The James Randi Million Dollar Challenge has existed for years, without one successful candidate. You will never agree to put your faith on the line in something that can be falsifiable. The excuses you come up with for this are entertaining, however.

If not even the most basic, simple demonstration of something qualifying as supernatural can be demonstrated, to make leaps in faith that there exists a supernatural being is pointless.

Brahe

What, is this some sort of "might-makes-right" argument? My father played a rather large hand in my development, but that doesn't mean he can sell me into slavery.

7thangel

Simple, if we exist by the laws of nature alone. Then right and wrong is confined from these laws alone. And we have no right to be against it. It follows that if by the powers of God all things exist, then all things should exist according to God's power. If God is the only force acting on all things, then what his will is should be done.

In the sense of potter-clay relationship, might is right. Your father-son relationship does not level to God-man, nor potter-clay, relationship, and thus you cannot use the same reasoning.

Philosoft

Do you understand the implications this view has on our world? If God's will is always done, how can any human action be anything but what God wants?

Brahe

Well, this doesn't have anything to do with a potter-clay argument, nor does it advance a "might-makes-right" morality, but let's examine it.

If God's will is manifested through the physical laws of nature, and humans cannot violate these laws, then does it not follow that every human action is in accordance with God's will? Everything from the fire-bombing of Dresden to Saddam Hussein's attack on Kuwait would therefore be God's will. Heck, even the rise of other religions, from Islam to Buddhism, would be God's will!