lugotorix

That's wonderful. I'm glad it's working out. I had been a solitary Buddhist for some time, since my last teacher passed away. I recently started meeting with a group in NYC. It's a bit of a trek from western Massachusetts (3.5 hours), but having contact with other like-minded folks really adds something to my practice.


lugotorix

Primal

Some scientists embrace Intelligent Design theory, so what? They are fringe/quacks.


Who said the sacred had to be a realm?

Nor are Xians who believe in the Old Testament, but there are still myths within the belief system.


It is prescribed behavior meant to further some sacred goal, that is ritual. This is why prayer counts as ritual as well.

And is any of this Dharma proven? Nope. That's what makes it dogma i.e. a system meant to promote some intellectual understanding of a religious system.

Yeah and I think you just want to pretend that quack is really duck-speak. Buddhism is considered a religion by the vast majority of authorities on the study of world religions. You refutations were off target to say the least. Please learn to accept the facts and realize no religion is given special status just because you may favor it. Many people who favor their own pet religion say the exact same thing:

Xians: "Christianity is not a religion; its a relationship with Jesus"

Taoists: "Taoism isn't a religion, it a philosophy."

Jews: "Judaism is cultural not religious."

Gee I guess there really are NO religions at all given these standards.

Seraphim

Why Buddhism is NOT a religion?

1. Gautama Buddha never pray to anyone nor did he advised/told his students to do so.

2. Gautama Buddha never forced anyone to follow him (never even asked anyone either), people came to hear this sermon and went on their free will.

3. Buddhism deals with the self-realizing path where a person is FULLY responsible for his or her action and responsible to end his or her own suffering. It doesn't deal with pleasing anyone or any God for salvation.

4. Gautama Buddha never taught any of this students any rituals, only ways to meditate and principle behind sufferings.

Anything else that get added into Buddhism after Gautama Buddha's death is result of cultural interaction with Buddhist teachings.

First to come in contact with Buddhism is Hindusm and most of the mythical parts enters the teaching by Hindus and Buddhist interaction/discussion.

Primal

According to this definition the only religions are those with Gods i.e. pagan and abrahamic ones. This means very large chunks of certain recognized religions such as Taoism,much of Hinduism etc, do not count as religions. Scientology would not as well as it doesn't demand prayer. Two things are wrong with this point 1) Prayer is not the only form of ritual. 2) Pure land Buddhism.

Yeah, Christians will say Jesus Christ did the same thing. Coercion or lack thereof does not indicate religiousity one way or the other.

It deals with something considered sacred and has notions in it like reincarnation. Pleasing Gods is necessary for theism, not religion.

Those count as rituals. Practices which invoke the sacred i.e. Nirvana or Permanent Nirvana.

That still counts as Buddhism. Stuff added after Jesus death was a matter of cultural development as well, does that mean we reject the New Testament Gospels as Christian dogma?

Pure, superfluous speculation.

Seraphim

"According to this definition the only religions are those with Gods i.e. pagan and abrahamic ones. This means very large chunks of certain recognized religions such as Taoism,much of Hinduism etc, do not count as religions. Scientology would not as well as it doesn't demand prayer. Two things are wrong with this point 1) Prayer is not the only form of ritual. 2) Pure land Buddhism. "

My reply : Toaism is NOT a religion either. It is as close as you get to an organized Atheism as you can get - except that it is cover a certain Yin/Yang Principle (which includes interaction of elements within the body) and the concept of Macro and Micro Universe (One is All, All is One). The whole concept is hard to explain in short detail so get a book if you wish to know.

Hindusm IS a religion since it's followers are required to get close to God (pleasing Him is not required).

Scientology is NOT a religion either, I don't even consider it as a teaching. Science to me is something to learn, make new discover and relearn what you know, IF someone consider Science with the same level as religion or any teaching, then they will HIDE behind it like Theologist (wrong word here?) does with their belief.

What other form of rituals are there? Buddha never thought about prayers, so WHY should others consider prayers is part of Buddhism? And what is this Pure Land Buddhism? Till I come to this forum, I never heard such concept.

"Yeah, Christians will say Jesus Christ did the same thing. Coercion or lack thereof does not indicate religiousity one way or the other. "

My reply : BS. Jesus walked to half a dozen people and told them (literally) to drop whatever they are doing and FOLLOW him. Open the Bible back and re-read it.

"It deals with something considered sacred and has notions in it like reincarnation. Pleasing Gods is necessary for theism, not religion. "

My reply : There is nothing sacred about reincarnation.

"These count as rituals. Practices which invoke the sacred i.e. Nirvana or Permanent Nirvana. "

My reply : And what do you know about Nirwana? Buddha never told anyone what Nirwana was like, expecting his students to find it for themselves, so how do you know whether Nirwana is sacred or not?
Ever heard of the word "Discpline"? Those "rituals" you called are Discpline of the mind and body, NOT some magical act to send the body to the grave and the mind to a state of vegetable.

"That still counts as Buddhism. Stuff added after Jesus death was a matter of cultural development as well, does that mean we reject the New Testament Gospels as Christian dogma?"

My reply : Says who? Zen Buddhism for example is only followed in country like Japan, Mahayana in country like Thai etc. Certain countries has version of Buddhism which mixed together with their own rituals and beliefs, this maybe not be considered by Buddhism by ALL Buddhist.

Take for example Hindu Buddhism. While Hindus considered Gautama Buddha as 8th reincarnation of Vishnu and take Buddhism as part of Hindusm, Buddhist do not consider it in such way.

"Pure, superfluous speculation. "

My reply : Speculation MY Foot. Try coming to my country (Malaysia) during March or April every year when Wesak Day (Gautama Buddha's birthday) is celebrated and you will see how Hindus (certain sects) and Buddhist celebrate.

dostf

-Whether one wishes to state Buddhism is a religion or not, is secondary to the fact that it is an unreasonable "teaching" that is incomplete as a so called "way"
- IMO opinion gsx1138, if you are truly interested in learning about that "path", there is no better way than to experience it for yourself-----just try to assess as quickly as possible as some spend many years wasted IMO ---depending of course what one wants from it in the first place.

Be seeing you...

Answerer

As you had said, its a theory.


Good, continue to think in this way.


Sorry, I did seen christians(in my country) being asked to treat the myth seriously.

I repeated again, mantra and mediation is not a prayer or ritual. Its rather a process of thinking and balancing equiped with discipline.


Yes, it is proven through the results of mediation and balancing. And Dharma doesn't restricted to a set of rules or teachings, it is basically any methods or events that can help a person to be awakened.


Hmmm, you do sound a bit angry or perhaps fustrated. Anyway, I never forced you to believe in what I had to say, if you enjoy defining or classify things, so carry on. But please don't think of your belief as facts and expect others to think the same way as you do.

[ November 12, 2002: Message edited by: Answerer ]</p>

Amie

meditation is something I would like to do and it is something I have tried to do however it seems I am incapable of meditating due to the fact that I seem completely unable to quiet my thoughts...
there must be something I am missing here since I have heard so many positives from different people about meditation...

Seraphim

"there must be something I am missing here since I have heard so many positives from different people about meditation... "

My reply : How about Intention?

I take myself as example, I meditate because I'm also a Martial Artist and I hope that through meditation, I could increase my inner strenght and sensory (don't ask me to explain, it is not something easy to understand unless you experience it).

put some intention toward your effect and maybe your action could be easier.

monkey mind

What type(s) of meditation have you tried? Everybody has this problem that you talk about. Meditating is not so easy, because it takes consistent effort to achieve. Meditation is not so hard, because you don't have to force your mind or stand over it with a hammer, trying to smack down any thought that arise. You just have to keep going, and let go of any sundry thoughts when they come.

Of course your capable of meditating, meditating is exactly what you are doing when you 'try'... I would suggest trying out a couple of different types of meditation, and different teachers until you find one that clicks.

The benefits of meditation are invisible and abstract, and are a result of you increasing your mind power. Increasing your mind power is the whole point of meditation, and every time you meditate you increase it no matter if you feel you've had a 'good' meditation or a 'bad' one. I meditate everyday, and still I have good days and bad days. My teacher has likened it to food, some days it tastes good, some days not so good, but you always get the nourishment from it.

The benefits are something you have to feel for yourself, to be convinced of whether it is a worthwhile activity. Just the same as you can't tell if someone else has a satisfying meal, you can only tell if you yourself are full or hungry.