Ultron

Another question, if the UN partitioned that land in 1948, why did Israel and the other 7 nations need to go to war? At the end of the war, who won, and how did they hold that land?

slept2long

I agree with you now. I forgot that a UN resolution ain't worth shit. It's facts on the ground that count.

They did. I was thinking there partitioning meant something.

The UN partitioned it into two states.
After the Brits relunquished it the UN partitioned it. THEN the war broke out. After the wars were over Israel continued confiscating land from Arabs and building on it.
When did the UN partition become worthless?
Ineffective at stopping the war yes.

I take that back. It seems clear that only a war can make your claim to land legit. And even if your not at war you can still appropriate land if your foe can't fight you for it. Right?

slept2long

I see your point. Since the Pals never had a state after the partition nor fought for one they have no right to anything right? And since Israel was fighting to keep the Arabs around it from destroying it the Pals have no right to anything?

Ultron

My eyes are hurting now. I will come back after I get some sleep and reply. And thank you for not taking my disagreement personally. I'm just a little wiped out right now. zzz

Ultron

True.

Well it was supposed to. The problem is that they lack any real power to determine borders, etc. They have no sovereignty which supercedes that of another government. Britain gave up a claim to the land and let the denizens of the area decide the borders. This was after the various partition plans failed.

Remember, Israel agreed to the partitions, the Arabs did not.

Well Britain did. But when they gave up on that land the people the area fought for some time. Israel actually gained more ground in that time, desepite being surrounded and attacked by 7 other nations.

Yeah the Palestinian Jews were willing to live with the UN-sanction borderes, but the Arabs never agreed to them. War broke out and Israel won. In a sense, Jordan and Egypt also won, because they expanded their borders too.

Well they were never agreed upon by the Arabs, so they never had any authority. Furthermore when Britain gave up on the land, war broke out, and the people of the region determined their own borders. Jordan made out like a bandit, taking what became their West Bank. Egypt also did well, getting much of the Gaza Strip.

Now the UN could have tried harder to shape the dispute, but after WWII a lot of the member nations really were tapped and didn't want to lose more lives in a holy war there.

Or through treaties.

Well if you and an enemy have a dispute about lands, and your enemy stops claiming that land, and you do. You now own that land.

This is the situation that exists in Israel now. Both Jordan and Egypt gave up their claims to the West Bank and Gaza strip. Israel has not.

What's in dispute? The private lands that the Palestinians own is rightfully theirs. But the public lands, that's govt land. And if the govt of Israel wants to build settlements in those public lands, that's within their power.

I'm behind the Palestinians if they are moved out of their homes and claims to their private land they are occupying are taken away. But as far as public lands, the Palestinians never won the West Bank from Jordan. They never won that from Israel. They never won that from Britain, or the Turks before them.

slept2long

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I took a break from posting because I was starting to take discussions WAY TOO seriously. I am glad my agitation at your suggestion that the Pals had to fight for their land to have a right to it didn't get through. It wasn't until I thought about it for a minute that it made sense.

slept2long

I think it's strange that the UN makes partition plans and can't do anything to put them into action. That almost makes them totally at the mercy of those who can implement plans.


The both did. I think the UN and Britain had a hand in the partitioning. Although the British partitioned the bulk of the land before the UN ever got near it.

There were also Arabs who would have lived under those borders who's choice was made for them by their neighbors, Jordan, Egypt ......... I think it's odd that so much effort has been made by Israel
to make that area unpartitionable since then.
Interesting. I'll look into this some more.

I see your point.

Nah. Nobody obeys those.

Wasn't the West Bank given back to the Pals? I'll look into that myself but I was thinking that if Jordan had control and ownership of the West Bank then Israel's settlement consruction would be illegal.
Even if it's in modern day Israeli borders? Do you think they still have ownership rights to property they were kicked off of?

I see your point. We could get into a discussion about when they became private and not public and where those areas are but I'll leave that for another thread.