Theli

Luvluv...

Simply because the choices has already been made.

This is an illogical question. God cannot see something that doesn't exist, true?
Your future choices doesn't exist. Future events doesn't exist more than events that could happen in the future exist. The past doesn't exist, but it leaves traces in the present (like memory). Our time does flow forward (cause->effect), so future events doesn't leave a trace in the present.

Also illogical. Our 'now' doesn't mean anything to a being not present in our spacetime. It cannot be said to exist.

History can only be observed by what traces it leave behind. Once again, god cannot observe any of it. There is nothing to observe from his point of view.

Correct. All events would have elapsed for him to see "the end of the line", or "the result" if you like. Wich would mean that god doesn't exist, but "will" exist. This is ofcourse assuming that he can observe anything at all within our spacetime. Wich I stated before is illogical.

So, his observations of us exists within our spacetime? Doesn't that mean that god also exist within our spacetime?

No, I can't even figure out how he observes us at all. But I do know that if absolute correct knowledge of our future exists, the future would already have elaplsed.

Once again, it's not his obsevations that limits my actions. It's the idea that future events can be observed.

Anthropomorphism.
See imply detecting photons. And I don't understand how he can "see" something that doesn't exist.

Jamie_L

Luvluv,

I think Mantis' pudding analogy works best to explain how the existence of our future actions eliminates free will.

Go back and read the first post about the pudding. It represents a 4-dimensional universe. From an outside perspective, all actions in all places in all TIMES exist "at once."

Now, if all those actions exist, how can we choose them? We did not make the pudding. We're just stuck in it. Theli's point is that the only way to be able to see the future is for that future to "exist" in some sense. And if it exists, then it is like the pudding. Already there. Can't be undone (except maybe from the outside).

As Theli points out, this is essentially independent of God's ability to see the future. Theil's point is that if the future is there to see in the first place, then we can't change it.

Another example:
Suppose God see's me two weeks in the future. I am homeless because I chose to gamble all my money away on a horse race. Now, when I get to the day of the horse race, can I choose not to bet on the race? If I can, then God did not really see the future. If I can't, then do I really have a choice?

Jamie

Ojuice5001

Luvluv, check your private messages.

luvluv

Ojuice I got that in my email but I dont know where to go to check or respond to private messages?

Ojuice5001

Go to your profile. The private messages are at the bottom of the page.

And Tercel, if you're reading this, I also have a message for you.

[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: Ojuice5001 ]</p>

Non-praying Mantis

First, let me apologize for my lack of responses to this thread for the past week, as I have been out of town and away from my computer.

Luvluv:

First off, why don't you re-read my first post where the pudding was mentioned, like Jamie_L suggested. Thanks, Jamie_L!

But, I will try to demonstrate this AGAIN:
Using your video tape analogy:

Let us assume that God's knowledge is like a video tape. God can "view" this video tape at any "time" (God's time, not ours), rewinding and fast-fowarding. Your life is on that video tape.

BEFORE you are born (our time, not God's time), all of your life is on that video tape. Correct? Correct, if God is omniscient. That video tape is perfectly accurate.

Now, you are born and you live a year. Has that video tape changed in any way?

NO, not if God is omniscient. Let us suppose that you decide to buy a DVD player and rent a movie. DURING this action (again, our time, not God's) has the video tape changed in any way?

Again, no, not if God is omniscient. Many years later, after you are dead and gone (or in heaven if you prefer), has that video tape changed in any way?

For the third time, no, it has not. This is what happens if God is omniscient, as per the definition: omniscient = knows all. God's perfect knowledge cannot change throughout our lifetimes, can it not?

Now, I know that you do not like me refering to "God's time" and that God should not be restrained by ANY time, even "God's own". If this bothers you, think of God's time as a metaphor that allows us to visualize God's actions. Actions (at least the ones that we know about) occur in linear time. Actions such as "viewing" and "creating," which you say that God performs. For me to visualize God performing these actions, it helps me to think in terms of God's time. I do not think that having a separate "time" for God would constrain God, or cancel God's omnipotence in any way.

Now, can you see the problems that omniscience causes? Remember, when we view something on video tape, we can only watch things as they were (tape), or as they are happening (life feed), and that our actions are not affected by our type of observation.

CORRECT!

<strong> Because, God's "video tape" is unchanging. Now, in the above passage, I think that you are the one who is bringing linear time into this!

It doesn't really matter HOW God knows, it only matters that God KNOWS.

I hope that this clears things up a bit

NPM

Kip

This is a thorny issue but I eventually agreed that God's omniscience is incompatible with free will. This is my contribution to the discussion (I have not had time to read the rest of the thread).

The argument turns on two possible definitions of the word "can". Imagine a mouse trap that is ready to snap. That mouse trap "can" snap. Imagine, however, that we already know that mouse trap never snaps throughout all of history. No mouse ever comes. The trap never springs. Do we say the mouse trap still "can" snap? Perhaps yes, but only in a trivial sense relevant to conceivability, not possibility.

An important distinction is between correlation and causation. Does God's foreknowledge constrain human action or simply correlate with it? So, the libertarian has the subtle reply "just because God never does something doesn't mean he cannot do that". In the same we, none of us go out and commit mass murder and yet we all have that power (or do we?). But as I have tried to show, this reply is ultimately misleading.

Non-praying Mantis

&lt; bump &gt;

Luvluv, are you out there?

NPM