Aethari

Unless it became *actually* nonexistent, it wouldn't matter. Given an infinite amount of time (and presuming all that exists is finite in expanse), there are only a few options:

-You go crazy from boredom and wish for death.
-You somehow figure out a way to disable certain aspects of your being so that you can be constantly happy. (Essentially turning yourself into a happiness-vegetable incapable of caring.)
-You eventually die, somehow.

Magus would have us believe that heaven is eternal happiness-- but this can't be achieved unless God fundamentally subverts our free will and essence so that we'll always be happy come what may. Personally, I'm not sure why an eternity of something akin to a drug-induced haze is preferable to death. As I said before, the reason why life holds any value is because it allows us to exercise choice. Once you take away death, you take away the point of existing at all.

~Aethari

emotional

I underwent treatment on the psychiatrical front, which has done me a world of good (believe it or not, I used to have attacks of depression that made me suicidal), and on the psychoanalytical front, which wound up to dead ends all the time (I got to try four psychoanalytical doctors - all failed). Psychoanalists answered my cry of "I fear death" by allegorical interpretation: "something is dead inside you". But my fear of death is quite real, not allegorical, and they kept me ruminating instead of solving the problem.

At one time my fear of death got so overwhelming I started reading all reincarnation/NDE literature I could get my hands on. Such literature didn't calm me for very long; I'd always that doubtful "what if death is..." in my mind. Many times I desire to switch to religious belief at will, to silence my fear all at once, but I just can't do it. For religious belief to be effective in quelling my fear of death, I have to believe its real-world claims are true. That is, that the claim of life after death has to do with objective really. That there really is in reality a life after death. Unfortunately, as far as real-world claims are concerned, I know the only ones that hold water are the scientific, materialistic ones. I often hope Nature might be kind, and grant me life after death despite everything, but the horrors of biological evolution and human history show that there's nothing of the sort. The god who let 6 millions Jews be exterminated like fleas isn't going to grant an individual Homo Sapiens life after death.

I accept that there is no life after death, and I seek a cure for my abnormal fear of death. Any help available?

Aethari

emotional-

For me, at least, I temper my fear of death with the realization that without death, life is meaningless. I've said that in my earlier posts on this thread, and I hold it with conviction: death is what turns existing into living. Eternal life would not only be cruel, but it it absurd. As much as many people say they wish they could "live forever," I don't really think that is what people want. No-one who really wants to live forever grasps the harsh totality of their professed dream. People don't want to die because they want to experience more, do more, learn more, and be with those they love. There wouldn't be such a thing as a living will if merely existing was the point. Our desire isn't for life, but for the things we do while living: this should be recognized for what it is, and serve as an impetus towards action and progress. We know we can't live forever, and moreover, we don't even really want to. Death gives us the chance to make our lives meaningful, individual, and choice-driven.

~Aethari

Toto

Four different psychoanalysts could not possibly have covered all of the variations in psychotherapy. One of the possibilities that you have not yet tried might be the key. Don't confine yourself to doctors.

Also - psychoanalysis needs at least a few years to be effective. (Although it is hard to commit to that length of time if you're not sure that it will work.)

Queen of Swords

I don't like the idea of dying, but I like even less the thought of living a frightened, miserable life because death is at the end of it. That sounds like a Jack Chick character (and I use the term loosely) - so terrified of something bad that they are willing to do anything, including throwing away their intelligence, to avoid it.

Carrie

Emotional,

I've never been close to death, but as for right now, I'm not afraid of it. I was more afraid of it as a Christian.

I'm an agnostic, which means I DON'T KNOW. No one can actually KNOW what is for real. Who knows, maybe there is life after death. No one can say for sure that there is not.

I like to believe in life after death, and a happy one at that. Nothing wrong with hoping. It's human nature to hope for this.
People have been hoping it for thousands of years. But that doesn't mean you have to believe in any particular God or religion.

I do think the near death experiences that so many people have had are very fascinating. They have many similarities, and if you look at all the things they have in common, that might be a hint at what there is after death. Yes, some people see Jesus, but others don't. Some see relatives. And they say they were in the presence of God. I think people see different things in NDE's because that's what you can handle at that moment. When you first die, if you are a Christian, if you DON'T see Jesus, you are going to freak out. And if you are not a Christian, and you have an NDE and see Jesus, you will be confused and scared. So, from what I gather, you see what you expect to see when you die.
And who knows, after that, maybe the truth becomes clear to you. Some may need to see a Jesus figure when they die, while others need to see a relative, etc. But those who have had NDE's usually say they knew the truth and were comforted by it, and were not afraid, and are no longer afraid of death. Although, when they come back, they are not able to put into words the truth that they felt. They can only describe it using imagery.

So my hope is that there IS something to the NDE's.

I was watching a show on The Learning Channel, and many doctors have studied NDE's. What one doctor said really fascinated me. He said that the mind and the brain may be two separate things. So consciousness can exist when all the functions of the brain have stopped working. He attributes this to the workings of quantum physics. On the quantum level, the same quantum particle can exist in two places at the same time. This is a commonly accepted fact among quantum physicists. The brain is made up of quantum particles as well. When the brain stops functioning, these quantum particles do not cease to exist. They disperse, but they don't scatter to the winds. These particles stay together. It's a phenomenon called "quantum entanglement." So basically, you (your mind) still exists after you die, but you're no longer in your body. That's why people can see their bodies from above, and have all kinds of experiences during NDE's. It's like you are in the sea of quantum particles, which are what the universe is made of. You are part of the whole, and you feel it. You feel like you can know anything, and all possibilities are there.

I know this sounds like a bunch of "woo-woo" out there stuff, but it's a possibility. Who's to say it can't possibly be? This theory is just beginning to be explored and studied, but there are a lot of people out there who are starting to get interested in ideas like this, and many of them are scientists of the most brilliant kind. Guys with minds like Einstein. So this is not an idea of drugged up hippies. These ideas come from scientists.

Anyway, whatever happens when we die can't be all that bad. Death is natural, and it happens to every living creature. Humans are afraid of it because we don't know what's after it. But I'm sure animals are only afraid of the physical pain of death, and that's why they run and fight back, etc. So although my cat will try not to die, she doesn't sit around worrying about what will happen to her AFTER she dies. Whatever happens, it will be fair, and okay, and how things are meant to be.

I don't believe in a hell. At least not a permanent one. Maybe you could have bad experiences / life reflection / guilt / but not eternally. I don't think any God would do that. My reason for not believing in Hell is this question: Why would an all knowing God, create a person that he knew would end up in hell forever. If God is like a parent, then God loves created beings like a parent does; unconditionally. No parent would throw their child into an eternal fire, no matter how bad their kid was. I think Hell is the biggest fear that people have about death, but I don't think it exists. That doesn't make sense to me. I don't think life is going to turn into a nightmare. Belief in hell is a sick and twisted way of thinking. It can make people terrified and paranoid, and that's no way to live.

But if, when we die, we simply cease to exist, then that wouldn't be all that bad. You wouldn't even know it, or feel it, so it wouldn't bother "you." For example, Alzheimer's is not so bad for the person in the advanced stages of it. They don't know anything is wrong, and have no memory of themselves or their loved ones. So when we die, if we are just snuffed out, it won't be so bad for us.

But I personally don't believe we'll be snuffed out. I think we all go to a heaven, or are reincarnated. The only reason I believe that, is because I want to believe it. I admit that, but I see nothing wrong with that belief. I'm not forcing it on anyone or
telling people that they have to live any certain way. I just have a hope, and it makes life nice for me.

Here is my THEORY on what life after death could be like: I think you are still YOU and you are able to make choices and experience many different things, just like in this life. You could experience both good and bad. Joy and sadness. You still have free will. You can be with your loved ones and many others. Time is meaningless. "God" really is Love, and that's what you experience. Happiness, acceptance, unconditional love. If you feel these things, you will never get tired of it. Bliss. You really would want it to go on forever, and it does. But does that mean you cannot experience sadness? No. You can experience what you want, and that's the great thing about it. Isn't that what life is all about: experiencing? Being conscious? I am very grateful for all my experiences in this life, both good and bad. The sad things make life deep and meaningful. There is a full spectrum of emotions to experience, and we want to know it all, and so does "God." I have this idea that the universe IS God, and God is the universe. Life exists as one way for the universe / God to experience itself. Why else would seemingly pointless creatures exist? Such as dinosaurs. They existed because they could, and they wanted to exist, so they did. The universe wants to live, in any way possible. That's what it's all about. Life in general. Living and experienceing. So as for YOUR life - does "God" want to remember it / you after you die? Yes, just like you do. So you will remember your life on earth, since that's what made YOU you. Who knows, maybe you existed before your life on the earth. Maybe you can even have many lives, like reincarnation, but you can exist in a heaven at the same time, and can observe / experience your lives and the lives of others. I think "God" allows bad things to happen in life because without pain and suffering and grief, the good things wouldn't mean much. Life is life, and it's free to go whatever way it chooses. We experience the consequences of our own actions and the actions of others, both good and bad. We are given the full range of experience and emotion, and I'm glad for that. I'm glad that what we experience and feel is not controlled. Is it controlled after we die? I don't know. I kind of hope that heaven is a state of being where your perspective is so much greater, so you just see things differently. The "bad" experiences wouldn't exactly be bad to you. More like a way to learn. I mean, the POINT of the idea of heaven, is to be happy. Life on earth, with all it's pain and suffering, exists to make heaven that much better. Heaven is heaven because it's so much better than life on earth. Death exists, so you can have the experience of heaven, while also having had the experience of life. And life is precious. Death (the fact that this experience on earth comes to an end) is what makes this life precious. Life on earth is something worth protecting and making good for all creatures, because this experience on earth is the only one you'll have here. Hopefully you'll enjoy it. But what about those who don't enjoy their lives? Like those that suffered and died in the Holocaust. Is it fair that their life was terrible, while other people had it good, and then you just die and that's it? No, that's not fair. If after you die, you cease to exist, then the meaning of life is to try to be as happy as possible, and do whatever you have to do to get that happiness, even if it's at the expense of others.
And that's how most of the world lives, and it results in war, robbery, rape, etc. But I don't think happiness is the meaning of life. The meaning of life is to live, but not neccessarily to be happy. If the meaning of life were to be happy, then I feel sorry for the animals. Most of them live short hard lives, and then get eaten by others. The mice in the pet shop live in cages their whole lives, and then are bought to be fed to pet snakes. But do mice go to heaven? Sure, why not? The mouse becomes part of the universe at large when it dies. It could still experience, and maybe in much greater ways. Who knows, maybe in heaven we could even experience what it's like to be a mouse. That would be fun. I'd like to have that experience, among many others. I'm sure the experience of a mouse is much more complex and interesting than we now realize. (I have pet mice, and watching them is fascinating to me). So anyway, what is the meaning of life? Just to live it, and try to make it good for yourself, and OTHERS. But if your life is not good, it's okay. You can look forward to something better, and that makes a tough life bearable. In this life, try to enjoy it. Be loving. Have close relationships with others. Do good. These are the things that make life good, not just material wealth or your circumstances.
Try to give meaning and purpose to your life. Try to find meaning and truth. That's part of what makes so wonderful. The mystery of it, and getting to explore what could be. In heaven we'll still be able to explore, and have that sense of wonder. And just like in this life, we can get to KNOW things. Hopefully one day we'll know a lot more than we do now, and that knowledge will bring us joy. Wouldn't you be happy if you knew for certain that you would live forever in a heaven? Even if your life was tough, this knowledge would ease your mind.

I hope for you to have this peace of mind. If you'd like to believe in heaven, then believe in it, if that's what comforts you.
That's what I want for you; to be comforted, no matter what. WHATEVER happens in the end, it will be okay.

Volker.Doormann

Sorry, Carrie, weather you have the KNOWLEDGE (that no one can KNOW what is for real), then you prove wrong yourself, because you KNOW, - or - you have no KNOWLEDGE (that no one can KNOW what is for real), then such statement is irrelevant.

The contradiction in this sentence was first time stated by Xenophanes: “…and of course the clear and certain truth no man has seen nor will there be anyone who knows about the gods and what I say about all things. For even if, in the best case, one happened to speak just of what has been brought to pass, still he himself would not know. But opinion is allotted to all.”

It was simple a claim of vain personal arrogance of Xenophanes to others ('what I say about all things') to speak this contradiction, simple to recognize as illogical claim by KNOWLEDGE of the real true laws of logic.

Sorry for intervention.

Volker

Magus55

Carrie,

While its great that you hope for eternal life and happiness, you need to decide what you believe in now. You won't be rewarded for taking the middle ground and saying I don't know, especially if Christianity turns out to be right.


Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

I know you don't believe in that, but you don't get to make the choice in the afterlife, and not everyone will go to Heaven. For God to ignore unbelievers sins would make Him unrighteous, which is impossible for Him to be. Now some believe Hell will have stages. Where someone like Hitler is in burning fire for eternity in the lowest levels, while a good person who just didn't have their sins forgiven is on level 1 which may just be separation from God but no burning fire. I have no clue, but unless Buddhism or atheism turns out to be right, Hell is real.

HelenM

I hope there is some help available. I think you're right to see your problem as having an abnormal fear of death. Have you talked to any therapists or psychiatrists who specialize in helping people with OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder)? Since that is a disorder of being bothered by extreme obsessive, bothersome thoughts, maybe the approaches that help with that disorder could help you too.

I posted elsewhere that I'm reading "Brain-lock" by Jeffrey Schwartz which is about a cognitive-therapy approach to dealing with OCD. It's a very interesting book, I think; I recommend it to anyone who has troublesome intrusive thoughts that are interfering with their life.

I wish you the best in overcoming this debilitating fear. I have always wished the best for you.

take care
Helen

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Magus55
I know you don't believe in that, but you don't get to make the choice in the afterlife, and not everyone will go to Heaven.

If Heaven is filled with intolerant disembodied spirits singing praises for all eternity, why would anyone want to go there?

For God to ignore unbelievers sins would make Him unrighteous, which is impossible for Him to be.

For God to torture unbelievers for all eternity would make him vicious and sadistic. Is this impossible for him to be?

Now some believe Hell will have stages. Where someone like Hitler is in burning fire for eternity in the lowest levels, while a good person who just didn't have their sins forgiven is on level 1 which may just be separation from God but no burning fire.

I wonder how we are supposed to feel this fire without bodies. Does god resurrect everyone's bodies just so that they can feel pain? And how does the fire burn forever - is there an unending supply of gas? That might very well make it heaven, by the standards of an SUV owner I know.

unless Buddhism or atheism turns out to be right, Hell is real.

Yes, real implausible.