schu

You may think she is inspired, but I think she is just a troll who will make assertions but not answer questions like:

Could you 'splain this in a little more detail for me GT? Just think of me as a very slow personand as you say, with stupid questions and explain to me in detail how this can be possible.

Let's see, a being who has already determined the outcome of everything that will happen on this world, who is all knowing and all powerful, knows what I am going to have for supper tomorrow already knows this but I still have a choice?

Also explain how a being can exist outside of time. This sounds like a cop out to me. Do you know what time is? If you could tell me what time is I would be greatly in your debt. Please explain it so I can understand how a being can be "outside" of it.

Please explain how you know these things too GT. And if you can't explain these things I'm going to assume that you don't really know these things and are just parroting what you have been spoon fed. Don't ask me to read any books. Just explain in your own words so I too can know these things.

Well, I'm waiting GT! You have time to start a thread about the remains of old dead people. How about telling us what you know about free will?

Amie

scroll up 4 posts. perhaps you missed that one.

Gemma Therese

I almost went into anthropology, schu.

There are three "perceptions" of time:

Linear time. This is how the Western world perceives time and is pretty self-explanatory.

Cyclic time. This is how the Eastern religions perceive time, that things exist in endless cycles.

Eternal time. This perception is used by nomadic tribes, and is probably the result of no sense of "linear" time -- because they do not keep written record, they cannot put things into perspective. Theologically, the definition of eternity is a moment that is always happening.

So, what is time really? Well, however you look at it, time is limiting, and time is more powerful than the human. If God existed in time, He would be limited by it.

Free will. God's knowledge of your actions do not affect these actions. When I watch the Wizard of Oz, I know that Dorothy will choose to toss water on the Wicked Witch -- but my knowledge is not why she does this act. True, the movie has been made and the outcome cannot change but since I do not know the actions of any other person before they are executed, that is the closest example I can give. God knows, yet He does not carry out.

How do I know these things? Because I believe them. How do you know that Peru or Sri Lanka or the Ivory Coast exist if you have never been to these places? Because you have faith in people who have traveled to these places. In the same way, I believe the saints who have conversed with Christ (Catherine of Siena, Margaret Mary Alacoque, etc.), saints who have been divinely inspired and written of theological matters (Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, John of the Cross, etc.) saints who have visions of the Blessed Mother (Catherine Laboure, Bernadette, etc.), saints who had the stigmata, (Francis, Gemma Galgani, Padre Pio, etc.), and saints who glorified God in their daily lives (Therese of Lisieux, Rose of Lima, etc.) I know because I believe these things to be Truth. Through thought, prayer, study, and observation, I have come to these conclusions.

Gemma Therese

lpetrich

Exactly my point as regards miracles worked by saints. Why were medieval ones much more capable than present-day ones? Why did St. Genevieve, for example, work much bigger miracles than Mother Teresa ever did, with the possible exception of creating an image of being a great humanitarian?

Amos

Not more entertaining but just the fact that when we exptrapolate our science from omniscience we also provide God with the omniscience for the next generation. You can explain this with Plato's theory of recollection.

It is not really my idea but since it appears to be universal and since a form of wake is universal the obvious conclusion would be that a wake has this in mind-- which is especially true if a wake ends when the corpse begins to emit foul odor. Not my idea, no, but just my observation.

Rousseau_CHN

All things can be explained scientifically. In fact, when explained in a non-mystical way, it often is more inspiring.

Case in point: The Feeding of the 5000

The Bible said that Christ was able multiply a handful of bread and fish to feed 5000 Jews.

How do you explain this secularly?

I think that there was indeed a gathering of 5000. Now some people went to gathering well prepared, i.e. food and drinks. As the day progress, someone got really, really hungry and decided to bring out his lunch. While enjoying his meal, he probably felt the need to share it with his neighbor. So he broke it and gave him a piece. Very soon, everyone was sharing their meals.

Cheesy? I hate it when I'm cheesy.

beyelzu

or maybe the apostles all just told about the other miracles they performed that week among the lepers. after 30 minutes of talking about body parts falling off i doubt anyone had much of an appetitie.

schu

Well, you have learned to seem to answer a question without actually answering it. I didn't ask how people perceived time, I ask you what time was! Then you ask the question again but just give me what you think is an characteristic of time. This attribute may or may not be true, but if it is true, it seems to me that it might be an argument against the existence of god. It might limit god to nonexistence.

Your argument for free will is no better. You use a prosaic example of knowledge of a movie that you only knew after you saw the movie or because someone else had seen it and knew what would happen. How can this be an example of what happens when an all knowing god knows before hand what is going to happen? The fact is that it has nothing to do with it. Not only that, you hedge your own argument which shows me you don't even believe it to be a good argument. If you thought about it a bit you would know there can be no example in the natural world that can explain the hypothetical supernatural. None of your examples can take into account the omni endowments attributed to your all powerful god. Your example falls very far short.

Instead of feeding me a list of old dead Catholics why not look at the lives of some of these people with a skeptical eye? There are loads of people who have refuted the holy attribute of people like Padre Pio. There are plenty of people who knew him who not only didn't think he was a saint, but thought he was not a very nice man. This information is easily available in this day and age. If you just choose to believe, why not believe that Joseph Smith of the Latter Day Saints was an inspired holy man? You may be betting on the wrong bunch of saints and end up in hell for your mistake. Or you could start to think for yourself and ascertain that this is a natural universe and that all gods are man made.

Regarding your "faith", I like Mark Twains definition: "Faith is believing what you know ain't so". To pretend that you know unknowable things the same way I know mundane things is a bogus argument and disingenuous on its face.

Nothing you've written has convinced me that old dead Catholics' bodies are preserved supernaturally or that Mary had a choice when she was impregnated. More than that, the dogma of the Immaculate Concepcion indicates to me that Catholics should know that she had no choice in the matter.

Gemma Therese

Schu,

You're missing faith. Without it, nothing I can say will convince you of anything.

Gemma Therese

schu

I suppose Amie that you are referring to this quote by GT. Would you like to explain how this can be inspirational to anyone but the brain dead? This is the kind of arrogant bullshit that skeptics have to put up with from the reality challenged. What is pathetic is that there are still people in this day and age who still think there is a sky daddy who created and sustains anything. In this age of reason it is pathetic for anyone to believe that some old dead person's body is being preserved by supernatural means, by a big daddy in the sky.

If you can find inspiration in the idea that a sky daddy preserves the bodies of old dead Catholics while at the same time creates and sustains life here on this earth then it isn't surprising you believe in the religion of old Semitic tribal people of several millennium ago.