Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 07-27-2003, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GunnerJ
Jesus Tap-Dancing Christ, I hearby announce my intention to face you in single combat to the death for the right to ask cynical-chick's hand in marraige.

Okay, I'll send my assassain as my champion.

alek0 · 07-27-2003, 08:07 PM

Quote:

However, I really don't see the societal pressure you mentioned for "those of us who grew up in less than stellar homes [to] play the victim."

Well, I don't exactly see that either, but I would like to know why is my sister (23, married, with 3 year old kid, hasn't even finished highschool and unemployed) held as a shining example of how things should be to me (30, single and childfree, PhD with good income). Why is being married and economically dependent somehow better than being educated and independent?

I would also like to know why is it acceptable to insult and laugh at a woman because she has very, very short hair.

I would like to know why are women discouraged from studying in certain fields and why are certain occupations less acceptable for women?

livius drusus · 07-27-2003, 08:08 PM

I think those are questions for another thread, alek0.

Gurdur · 07-27-2003, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Farren
......
I know you can chew through cast iron pots with those jaws, but can there are other more tasty morsels for a pack of hyenas around here.
.......

Make note to self:
have not given Cynical Chick any attention.
Will make up for it by giving Farren extra attention when opportunity presents.
Teeth need work-out, jaw muscles under-utilized at moment.
Must reverse lazy trend by devoting much, much attention to Farren in future.

Cynical-Chick · 07-27-2003, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by livius drusus
What studies might those be?

Teen pregnancies are hardly the norm in this country. For one thing, they have declined 19% since peaking in 1990, and for another, the overwhelming majority of them (79.2%) occur in 18 and 19 year olds. So much for the 5 children by 4 fathers before the age of 18.

As for the litany of adjectives, they sound like stereotypes to me, and as such are hardly realistic descriptors of people who live below the poverty line or suffer whatever other disadvantages Ms. Drake has in mind.

It's not.

This is a cliche presupposition worthy of talk radio, and does not reflect any actual societal consensus I have ever seen. I would like to see some real evidence that "society" excuses people who don't know right from wrong because of poor childhoods. I hear people complain about criminals being coddled all the time, but how often does it actually happen that someone is let off or gets a reduced sentence because of their pitiable childhood? This is the land of the War of Drugs, after all, and such excrescences as three strikes laws provide no discretion room whatsoever for even the most bleeding-heart sympathetic judges and juries.

The only people I see getting off scott free are the rich kids who either never get arrested in the first place or get daddy to make a few calls or if that doesn't work, hire F. Lee Bailey. I can think of several examples of people raised in extraordinary privilege who traffic in excuse-making and are constantly protected from the consequences of their illegal and/or anti-social behaviors. The current president of the United States with his disappeared DUIs and year long desertion from the National Guard sinecure his father had arranged for him so he wouldn't have to rub shoulders with the great unwashed in Vietnam leaps instantly to mind.

Then Ms. Drake should take responsibility for her assertions and provide evidence of these putative sociological studies. What were the hypothesis being tested? What were the conclusions? What methodology was employed and who employed it?

Daytime television is not an effective measure of societal trends. It is self-selectingly outrageous, choosing guests who are as annoying, bizarre and narcissitic as possible. Guests must not only inhabit the tiny little corners of any given bell curve, but they must crave attention to a degree that verges on mental illness. I do not accept that the Jerry Springer Show is a reasonable sample from which to draw conclusions on the state of the union.

Fine rhetoric, but I find that your friend's argument lacks specificity, relies pretty much exclusively on groundless assumptions and hot air. Usually such chest-beating is accompanied by at least one media-pimped story of shocking injustice. Of course even then it is ludicrous to extrapolate social trends from a single case, but Ms. Drake didn't even throw us that tiny bone.

Do note that this woman is a teacher; in the Southern US, no less, in which I am a customer service representative. I have seen so many people who fit their stereotypes that it's not funny. I'd say it's based on observation and what people seem to think we should be doing.

ju'iblex · 07-27-2003, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynical-Chick
Do note that this woman is a teacher; in the Southern US, no less, in which I am a customer service representative. I have seen so many people who fit their stereotypes that it's not funny. I'd say it's based on observation and what people seem to think we should be doing.

two fallacies, argument from authority and anecdotal evidence.

Daggah · 07-28-2003, 03:31 AM

And here we see that the female of the troll species doesn't ALWAYS stay home to nurse her young. Sometimes she joins the male in his hideous adventures, and will even occasionally go out on her own.

Next week on the Internet Nature channel....

Daggah · 07-28-2003, 03:50 AM

By the way, if Cynical Chick says she's a virgin, why does she list "single mama" in the "occupation" field of her profile?

livius drusus · 07-28-2003, 04:14 AM

Cynical-Chick, ju'iblex already pointed out the many levels of inadequacy in your reply, but I will answer fully in the most likely vain hope that you might be someday be inclined to actually address my points.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynical-Chick
Do note that this woman is a teacher; in the Southern US, no less, in which I am a customer service representative.

I've taught PowerPoint classes in the Southern US, no less, and that is as irrelevant to my argument as Ms. Drake's profession is to hers. As for your job, please accept my condolences.

Quote:

I have seen so many people who fit their stereotypes that it's not funny.

What stereotypes? The ones Ms. Drake spends an entire essay claiming she (and you) don't fit? Or the ones she uses herself to lend her argument that air of contemptuousness?

Quote:

I'd say it's based on observation and what people seem to think we should be doing.

If her argument was based on her own observations than she should not have repeatedly mentioned sociological studies or put words into "society's" mouth. I assure you her experience is limited. She cannot possibly know what other people "seem to think" and there is no way she can know what "society" thinks based on nothing but her off the cuff impressions. It makes for a paltry kind of argument, as anorexic on substance as it is obese with rhetoric.

Perhaps you should invite her to register and defend her essay since you seem to be either unable or unwilling to do so. I suspect she doesn't get much in the way critique at that board you linked to. Her critical thinking skills could probably use the challenge.

lunachick · 07-28-2003, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynical-Chick
I have seen so many people who fit their stereotypes that it's not funny. I'd say it's based on observation and what people seem to think we should be doing.

In other words, this 18 yo white American female, while being aghast at the notion of anyone placing her in any of society's pigeonholes of the day, feels suitably superior to wave her regal arm across so many, and immediately place them in whatever stereotype she deems is fit for them, based on a brief meeting or fleeting observation.

Hmmmm....

Well, I can honestly say that I'm completely underwhelmed by it all.

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07-27-2003, 08:08 PM	#33
livius drusus Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Selva Oscura Posts: 4,120	I think those are questions for another thread, alek0.

07-28-2003, 03:31 AM	#37
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	And here we see that the female of the troll species doesn't ALWAYS stay home to nurse her young. Sometimes she joins the male in his hideous adventures, and will even occasionally go out on her own. Next week on the Internet Nature channel....

07-28-2003, 03:50 AM	#38
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	By the way, if Cynical Chick says she's a virgin, why does she list "single mama" in the "occupation" field of her profile?

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