Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crazyfingers · 05-20-2002, 12:49 PM

Yes excellent letter!

trunks2k · 05-20-2002, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secular Elation:
<a href="http://www.fredericknewspost.com/display.cfm?storyid=20226" target="_blank">Commandments Tabled Challenged by High School Senior.</a>

So what if he hasn't voted or pays taxes? How does this, in any way, affect the contents of his letter and his reasons for opposing the tablet? What a pathetic reason to criticize the 18-year-old's position!

Yeah that last qoute pissed me off a lot too. First of all if the kid is 18, he only recently recieved the right to vote, and it is even more likely that there hasnt been anything that he could vote on yet. I'm 19, a registered voter, and have not voted yet. Why? because I turned 18 after the last presidential election, and there has been little, if anything to vote on in my district in which I had a strong enough opinion to actually put a vote in since then. And now I'm away at college and I don't know when any important votes in my district take place. Nor do I know enough about what is going on back home that would make me want to put in a vote from school. Does that make my opinions worthless? no.

And since hte kid is 18, most likely he has some sort of job. Unless he's being paid under the table he pays taxes. So that is an ignorant comment to make. Even if the kid doesn't pay taxes, does that mean we should just ignore him? Do you have to pay taxes in order to get the privlidge of having a reasonable, well thought out argument respected?

Plus the article didn't say that the kid said "take down the monument". He just sent a warning to the local government telling them that it's possible that the monument is unconstitutional.

Buffman · 05-20-2002, 02:58 PM

Ron G.

Thank you for writing and sending this superb letter. It highlights just how lacking in accurate knowledge Alderman Lenhart truly is when he says,

"I don't want to hear about the separation of church and state argument," he wrote in the e-mail. "It is a tired, overused argument which most people who use that statement either have no understanding what it means or they forgot that this country was founded under God, not exempt from Him."

I hope you will not be offended if I call a couple of things to your attention that deserve further investigation on your part.

First, John Adams did not write the statement you quote. He did sign the Treaty after it was ratified by the Senate unanimously. However, what he did do, that could be considered unusual, was to add a personal statement. "Now, be it known, that I, John Adams, President of the United Atates of America, having seen and considered the said treaty, do, by and within the consent of the Senate, accept, ratify and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof." (see pg. 383 of "Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States," edited by Hunter Miller, vol. 2, 1776-1818, U.S.Government Printing Office, 1931.)---It was Joel Barlow who wrote, in English only, that quoted statement into the treaty that was ratified. However, the added statement by the U.S. President is too often ignored by those who wish to claim the Founding and Framing Fathers to be zealous Christians.

Second, I got a little confused about exactly when Madison and Jefferson joined forces to cause the "Act for Establishing Religious Freedom" (written by Jefferson and introduced, by him, into the Virginia Assembly in 1779) to be signed into law on January 19, 1786. It seems that Madison's "Memorial and Remonstrance," written in the spring of 1785 was done so to help blunt the influence of Patrick Henry's oratory in support of paying the ministers with tax money.

I believe that Jefferson left for France on July 5, 1784 aboard the "Ceres," and did not depart France until October 7, 1789 aboard the "Clermont." Naturally there is an abundance of correspondance during those years.

Ron: I tend to be somewhat of a stickler for accuracy in order to prevent openings for the anti-Separationist types. If I am going to pound on them for accuracy, it places an even heavier burden on me to minimize my errors in American history.

Ron Garrett · 05-21-2002, 01:09 PM

Buffman:

I took the information as presented from James A. Haught's "2000 Years of Disbelief" though I might have intermingled material from a series of lectures at City College of New York by Professor Darren Staloff. I originally sent the letter to my kinsman Jesse Helms in opposition to the Faith-Based Initiatives legislation.

My history training is in the biblical era, not early American, a deficiency I've only begun to remedy since moving to the east coast where the history is so close at hand. I certainly concur with the importance of checking one's sources and I appreciate your information.

Ron Garrett · 05-21-2002, 02:50 PM

I have received this reply from Alderman Lenhart:

Quote:

Dear Mr. Garrett:

Thank you for your message. Whether you want to accept it or not, our Country was founded under God. Period. Madison and Jefferson accepted that our inalienable rights come from a higher authority than man; God. From Him, then, we are given those rights.

The most telling information you presented below "...myself hold all religion to be primitive and culturally imposed superstititon.
", was the admission you don't believe in God. From that statement, then, I can understand why you would not support the Ten Commandments. How sad for you.

Mr. Garrett I will pray for you.

Thank you.

Dave Lenhart
Alderman, City of Frederick

I have responded with:

Quote:

Dear Alderman Lenhart:

I appreciate hearing from you. I won't belabor the point, at least not too much, except to suggest that the actual correspondence and
writings of Madison and Jefferson, as opposed to public documents written for political and cultural consumption, would give you greater
insight into the actuality or inaccuracy of your understanding of these men of the enlightenment and their views. Facts are important to some religious men and I hope they are to you as well.

While a seminarian and pastor, I came to appreciate that there is a broad expanse between fact and faith. Faith is the substance of things not seen, such as any reasonable evidence whatever for the existence of an anthropomorphic God as you apparently conceive, let alone any evidence of a particular god as conceived by a particular cult, whether the Jehovah's Witnesses of recent years, or the Yahwists of Israel.

No Christian living today claims to have seen a man three days dead rise from the grave, or walk upon water, or angels hangin around tombs, but rather they accept these myths uncritically based on writings from unknown authors with unverifiable access to the facts. While I certainly cannot use third party ex post facto literature to prove or disprove a miracle, I can certainly use first person documents, personal correspondence written by Madison, Jefferson,and Adams in their own hand to refute the notion that this nation was founded as a theocracy by Christian men. Your statement is quite simply refuted by the readily available writings of these men. Even a cursory reading of Jefferson's correspondence, or Adam's, or Madison's, would make it utterly plain to you that the attempt of modern evangelicalism to muster "the faith of the founders" in support of a modern American
theocracy is dishonest in the extreme, in effect a false witness that misrepresents these men and their beliefs. Whatever your religious views or goals, I would hope honesty would matter to you, and you would avail yourself of the evidence directly, neither taking my word, not that of a propagandist compendium from James Kennedy. I can respect a stand on faith, but one based on falsehood for the sake of politically favoring Judeo-Christian religion should be respected by no honorable person.

While I appreciate your willingness to pray for me, you and I would both be better served if you invested the time to actually study your belief system. If you are a Christian, then do it for the sake of God's commendation as in the case of the Bereans, who searched the scriptures to see if the things they had been told were true. As a starting point, I recommend you start with the Decalogue you are so passionately defending.

In Exodus 20:4 Yhwh is given to say "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." But then in Exodus 25:18, he contradicts himself by instructing on the creation of graven images of Cherubim, a thing in heaven, when he says, "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be."

In Exodus 20:5 and elsewhere Yhwh is given to say, " I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" But this is contradicted by Dt.24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Jer.31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity." Ezek.18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Which Yhwh should we heed?

In Exodus 20:8 Yhwh is given to say "Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy.' But elsewhere we find Is.1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity." Mt.12:2 "Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day." Jn.5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day." Rom.14:5 "One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Col.2:16 "Let now man therefore judge you in meat and drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon; or of the sabbath days." So do we keep the Sabbath or it is "iniquity?"

In Exodus 20:12 Yhwh is given to say, ""Honour thy father and thy mother." But elsewhere we have, Mt.12:47-48 "Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother?" Mt.23:9 "Call no man your father upon the earth." Mk.3:32-33 "And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother?" Lk.9:59-60 "And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead." Lk.14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

In Exodus 20:13 we have, "Thou shalt not kill." But elsewhere we have Ex.32:27 "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side ... and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor." Num.15:35 "And the Lord said unto Moses, The man [who was found picking up sticks on the sabbath] shall be surely put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones." 1 Sam.15:2-3 "Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare him not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

In Exodus 20:14 we have, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." But elsewhere he commands it in Hosea 3:1 "Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine."

IN fact compare all these Ten Commandments to the other version found in Exodus 34. 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: 34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; 34:16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.34:17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.34:18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib:for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.34:19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male. 34:20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.34:21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest. 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end. 34:23 Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel. 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.34:25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning. 34:26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk. Ex.34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

Now I'm guessing that like most ardent defenders of the "Ten Commandments" you haven't studied them enough to know there are two quite different versions.

I cannot summarize or replicate for you here that decades long journey I have taken from youthful conversion, lay ministry, graduate degrees in theology and sociology, ordination, pastoring, and doctoral studies in biblical literature and church history that led me to reject the faith in order to convince you that you have simply been a willing participant in your deception. If you are like 99% of the those in the faith, you know less about your own religion than you know about quantum mechanics, and anything I might say would simply be rejected as an attack by invisible evil spirits. But questions of faith aside, as a matter of black letter law, you are in the wrong
on this matter, and I for one will contribute to any required legal effort to insure that neither you nor anyone will contravene law established for the protection of the freedoms of all Americans, including your freedom to believe what you will, and my freedom to enjoy public lands free of the taint of religious statuary.

I am sure you hold your views in all sincerity, and I have no interest in disuading you from your religious beliefs. Certainly I had to disuade myself, kicking and screaming against the evidence all the way. I could not have been disuaded by someone else. So I understand why you are doing as your are doing, but knowing that your stance is irrational and emotional is all the more reason to stand in your way.

Sincerely,
Ron Garrett

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: Ron Garrett ]

Buffman · 05-21-2002, 03:07 PM

Ron

Oh my, can I empathize. I used to take many quotes and references from "The Great Thoughts" by George Seldes. Much to my embarrassment and chagrin, I discovered that some critical ones that I had used had been poorly or inaccurately sourced. I vowed to take the time to seek the original sources, where possible/feasible, before using his quotes again. That just happened to me right here:

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000319" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000319</a>

I was about to use the Seldes quote of a T. Jefferson letter to Peter Carr, when I stopped myself and did a little further research. Sure enough, not only were the words slightly different, but the reference year used in the Seldes quote was wrong. Ugh!

Should you read my post to Laera, you might find the URL I provided her very interesting. I just took the time to read Jefferson's entire letter and stand in awe of the mind that created it.

Buffman · 05-21-2002, 03:45 PM

Ron

That is one of the most powerful and wonderful letters I have read in decades. It made my spirits soar. Thank you.

(Layman's aside): Do Christians see any difference in the three series of OT Commandments and the abrievated ones found at MK 10:18-19 and ROM 13:7-9? (I realize that my question is only indirectly related to C-S, but when discussing the validity and value of the so-called 10 Commandments, placed in the public square with overt government support, with overly zealous Christians, it would seem to indicate that the Church Fathers recognized the vicious and vengeful God of the OT and attempted to recreate Him in a new, more benevolent, image in the writings of the NT. Thus, which Commandments should Christians obey? "All" those found in the OT or just those in the NT?)

Thor Q. Mada · 05-21-2002, 06:37 PM

A few things:

-An 18 year old doesn't have the right to have an independent opinion says this old idiot, but if necessary an 18 year old has the right to die for his country. Something wrong here Mr Tansey. And maybe he has not yet paid taxes, but he will.
-Secondly, I am getting sick of that "nation under God thing". Have we forgotten that the belt buckle of the German army said "God mit uns". They also thought that was a correct statement with as much conviction as the "Nation under God" guys.
Of-course both are drastically wrong.

bonduca · 05-21-2002, 07:14 PM

Kick ASS, Ron.

The Other Michael · 05-21-2002, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thor Q. Mada:
A few things:
-Secondly, I am getting sick of that "nation under God thing". Have we forgotten that the belt buckle of the German army said "God mit uns". They also thought that was a correct statement with as much conviction as the "Nation under God" guys.
Of-course both are drastically wrong.

But you've got to remember - God was on OUR side against the EVIL AXIS in WW2. Equating the Allies to the EVIL AXIS Wermacht will just get you dismissed by a looney by all True Americans (TM). It isn't like the Germans were True Christians (TM).

cheers,
Michael

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05-20-2002, 12:49 PM	#11
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	Yes excellent letter!

05-20-2002, 02:58 PM	#13
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Ron G. Thank you for writing and sending this superb letter. It highlights just how lacking in accurate knowledge Alderman Lenhart truly is when he says, "I don't want to hear about the separation of church and state argument," he wrote in the e-mail. "It is a tired, overused argument which most people who use that statement either have no understanding what it means or they forgot that this country was founded under God, not exempt from Him." I hope you will not be offended if I call a couple of things to your attention that deserve further investigation on your part. First, John Adams did not write the statement you quote. He did sign the Treaty after it was ratified by the Senate unanimously. However, what he did do, that could be considered unusual, was to add a personal statement. "Now, be it known, that I, John Adams, President of the United Atates of America, having seen and considered the said treaty, do, by and within the consent of the Senate, accept, ratify and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof." (see pg. 383 of "Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States," edited by Hunter Miller, vol. 2, 1776-1818, U.S.Government Printing Office, 1931.)---It was Joel Barlow who wrote, in English only, that quoted statement into the treaty that was ratified. However, the added statement by the U.S. President is too often ignored by those who wish to claim the Founding and Framing Fathers to be zealous Christians. Second, I got a little confused about exactly when Madison and Jefferson joined forces to cause the "Act for Establishing Religious Freedom" (written by Jefferson and introduced, by him, into the Virginia Assembly in 1779) to be signed into law on January 19, 1786. It seems that Madison's "Memorial and Remonstrance," written in the spring of 1785 was done so to help blunt the influence of Patrick Henry's oratory in support of paying the ministers with tax money. I believe that Jefferson left for France on July 5, 1784 aboard the "Ceres," and did not depart France until October 7, 1789 aboard the "Clermont." Naturally there is an abundance of correspondance during those years. Ron: I tend to be somewhat of a stickler for accuracy in order to prevent openings for the anti-Separationist types. If I am going to pound on them for accuracy, it places an even heavier burden on me to minimize my errors in American history.

05-21-2002, 01:09 PM	#14
Ron Garrett Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: United States Posts: 1,657	Buffman: I took the information as presented from James A. Haught's "2000 Years of Disbelief" though I might have intermingled material from a series of lectures at City College of New York by Professor Darren Staloff. I originally sent the letter to my kinsman Jesse Helms in opposition to the Faith-Based Initiatives legislation. My history training is in the biblical era, not early American, a deficiency I've only begun to remedy since moving to the east coast where the history is so close at hand. I certainly concur with the importance of checking one's sources and I appreciate your information.

05-21-2002, 03:07 PM	#16
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Ron Oh my, can I empathize. I used to take many quotes and references from "The Great Thoughts" by George Seldes. Much to my embarrassment and chagrin, I discovered that some critical ones that I had used had been poorly or inaccurately sourced. I vowed to take the time to seek the original sources, where possible/feasible, before using his quotes again. That just happened to me right here: <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000319" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000319</a> I was about to use the Seldes quote of a T. Jefferson letter to Peter Carr, when I stopped myself and did a little further research. Sure enough, not only were the words slightly different, but the reference year used in the Seldes quote was wrong. Ugh! Should you read my post to Laera, you might find the URL I provided her very interesting. I just took the time to read Jefferson's entire letter and stand in awe of the mind that created it.

05-21-2002, 03:45 PM	#17
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Ron That is one of the most powerful and wonderful letters I have read in decades. It made my spirits soar. Thank you. (Layman's aside): Do Christians see any difference in the three series of OT Commandments and the abrievated ones found at MK 10:18-19 and ROM 13:7-9? (I realize that my question is only indirectly related to C-S, but when discussing the validity and value of the so-called 10 Commandments, placed in the public square with overt government support, with overly zealous Christians, it would seem to indicate that the Church Fathers recognized the vicious and vengeful God of the OT and attempted to recreate Him in a new, more benevolent, image in the writings of the NT. Thus, which Commandments should Christians obey? "All" those found in the OT or just those in the NT?)

05-21-2002, 06:37 PM	#18
Thor Q. Mada Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Asia Posts: 3,558	A few things: -An 18 year old doesn't have the right to have an independent opinion says this old idiot, but if necessary an 18 year old has the right to die for his country. Something wrong here Mr Tansey. And maybe he has not yet paid taxes, but he will. -Secondly, I am getting sick of that "nation under God thing". Have we forgotten that the belt buckle of the German army said "God mit uns". They also thought that was a correct statement with as much conviction as the "Nation under God" guys. Of-course both are drastically wrong.

05-21-2002, 07:14 PM	#19
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	Kick ASS, Ron.

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