Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 07-04-2003, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul Baxter

I have to say though, given the amount of talking past each other we have done, that I won't write one more word 'til I see your idea of what I Thes 4 means. Then at least I can tell YOU where I disagree with you.

I shall repeat part of one of my previous messages, in case you missed it the first time.

Clearly Paul thought Jesus would descend from Heaven while some of his readership were still alive, and that the living Christians would be transformed into some sort of ethereal, spiritual substance which would , in the worldview of that time, try to find its natural home - which was up in Heaven.

What do you mean by 'God visits from his home in heaven'? You were the one who wrote 'Since God is not a physical being in Jewish or xian thought, he doesn't live in a "place" generally speaking.'

Steven Carr · 07-04-2003, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul Baxter

The point of both the Daniel quote and the "Moses" one was that the language of clouds and heaven was used to speak of the day of God's judgment. The language means that God visits from his home in heaven to earth to vindicate the righteous and punish the wicked. This is, as we can all see thanks to your patient transcription, what the writer of "Moses" said.

1 Thess. 4:15-17

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The Lord is Jesus. Why then do you say that Paul meant that God would visit?

Paul meant that Jesus would visit.

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