Kamchatka

Samhain,

You call bullshit? Tastes good doesn't it?

I agree that there are thousands of explanations for the continuation of religions, including those for the brands of atheism practiced by those on this thread.

I didn't say that being born with god belief is an explanation for the continuation of religion.

God belief begins with our total devotion to and dependence on our mothers. All else follows from there, including atheism.

philechat

Freudian explanations? Ouch!

Come on...One could find something better. I think there are much more reason for religious beliefs, and not all of them fit nicely into the Freudian paradigm.

Kamchatka

Free12thinker,

I am not arguing that "He" or God exists.

I AM asserting that we are born with god belief and that gods exist.

I am not convinced that Jesus Christ ever walked on Earth (land or water). That does not change the fact that Jesus Christ is a god and does exist.

I apologize once more. I must go, but I will reply to every post related to my statements.

Koyaanisqatsi

This nonsense is still going on?

Wow...

You've just negated "god belief" entirely by defining it as nothing more than a misconstrued extension of familial dependence, thereby proving that we are not "born" with "god belief;" we manufacture it over time as a result of our responsive devotion and dependence upon our mothers (assuming, of course, as it does that the mother in question was in fact there to imprint upon us in the manner you are alleging).

You're describing imprinting, a result of fetal/infant survival, not an inherent, innate abstract concept that we are "born with" as in hardwired to our DNA.

In short, you have proved our contention; atheism, by definition, is the "default position."

free12thinker

Interesting phrasing here. You are not arguing that "HE" or God exists but you are asserting that God exists. Otay now.

If we are born with god belief, why don't we all believe in God. That's still my question. You're still not answering it.

And of course you could always give me reasons to believe that god exists. I'm not even asking for proof at this point. Just reasons. Is it because:
1. The earth is so vast and beautiful, how else to explain it, right.
2. Nothing (or No One) else could've made us.
3. You're born with the belief and there you have it?

If you can offer any reasons, I'd like to hear (ugh, read) them.

brighid

What I always find so amusing about the theist argument against science and it’s ability to reasonable conclude the likelihood of the existence of a God(s) is that in every other avenue of a theists life they trust science for most everything, yet reject it in this specific case.

Science is what gave you the electronic media with which you are communicating right now, science created the cars, the ships, the airplanes, trains and other mechanical apparatus we use to get to and for every single day. Science provided you with your modern home, electricity, refrigeration, running water, insulation, solar energy, the windmill, the lightning rod, radar systems that helps forecast our weather, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and all sort of cataclysmic events. Science gives you the vaccinations that has saved us from the devastating affects of epidemic illnesses that devastated our not so distant ancestors – such as small pox, mumps, measles, polio, etc. Science provides you with the medication you need to cure or relive the symptoms of many illnesses. I bet your medicine cabinet is filled with items purchased to help your ails that are given to you by science. Science gives you the doctors that attempt to heal your body and mind. Science has put a man on the moon, helped man explore the depths of the oceans, the expanses of space previously unreachable. Science gives religion the ability to be in contact with billions of people through TV, radio, the printed word, and the Internet.

So the next time your car breaks down will you pray that your car gets fixed, or will you visit your mechanic? Will you visit your priest and have him cure you from your illnesses? When your child is harmed in an accident and needs life saving attention will you call upon God and leave your child in His hands, or will you call 911 and have the local ambulance (provided to you by science) rush your child to the hospital where medical doctors (provided to you by science) will do all that is humanly possible to save your child? When your computer crashes will you pray over it until it gets fixed, or will your call a technician (provided to by science) to come fix it? Or will you call your mechanic, visit your doctor, call the computer tech and when they fix your problem attribute it to God, and if it fails attribute it to His mysterious ways, or perhaps the failings of the human technician – or worse Satan?

Every single day you entrust your very existence to science and you depend on science to meet your modern needs. Yet, when it comes to discerning God you say – Hogwash – science knows nothing of such things and I don’t trust it – faith is the way! So, all those who place their faith in God and feel science is somehow the enemy of your God, or perhaps just a childish tool we atheists use to rebel against what can be “plainly seen” I challenge you to give up all that science has given you. Give up your newspapers, your mass produced bibles, the computer you are using, the car, the train, or the bus that gets you to work, the medicine that heals you, the modern conveniences of electricity, running water, sewage, your mass produced homes, your TV’s, VCR’s, DVD’s, CD players, Kitchen Aid mixers, cappuccino machines, your central heat and central air, your organically grown vegetables that are resistant to certain diseases, your hybrid flowers, your synthetic clothing, your running shoes, your eye glasses, contacts, and everything else given to you by science and rely on your God. If you have so much faith in this God, His omni max qualities, His love for you (personally) and his infinite abilities then give up science completely. If it can’t be relied upon to prove or disprove something as important as your God – how can you be such hypocrites and rely on it for all the other much less important, mundane aspects of life like running water, electricity and medicine?

At least science isn’t so arrogant to say it knows all, sees all, is all and is incapable of error and above and beyond reproach like the JC God who in one instance is unknowable, yet we must “know” Him (not Her, They or It), a very specific version of Him – but makes His existence utterly improvable, unknowable and mysterious except to a few who he has predestined to provide such “knowledge” to. The rest of us must have faith – we must trust in what cannot actually be seen, felt, heard, or tested independently and verified like the rising and setting of the sun, or my own heart beat. Trust in men who have and will always exploit others for their own gain to tell me what I am suppose to “know” – that which cannot be known – especially not to a feeble and vile woman. So – be a true theist and give up all that science has given you, no longer trust it, use it and rely exclusively upon your God to provide for you. Prayer is your only tool, your only clothing, your only housing, your only sustenance and protection from the environment he created for you. Building a shelter, fashioning clothes, using fire to keep warm and cook your food, even in the most primitive sense is using science!

Let’s see how many takers we have, or how many will claim that all these “scientific” advances were given to us by God – but somehow we can’t find Him! I don’t believe that an infant placed on a desert island would not eventually come up with some creative explanation for some version of God to explain those things he or she could not explain. The real test would be if this infant, unexposed to any sort of theology would come up with JESUS as God, or would this child fashion god out of his/her own interpretation. Surely, the JC God could have enough power and influence to make this experiment come out in His favor? How many of the Christian theists feel confident that child, unexposed to the world and your version of God would come up with YOUR version of it? Especially since children are born in remote locations all over the world, grow up believing in Gods (plural) and fail to every acknowledge YOUR very specific and ONLY God! Primitive minds tend to come up with the most interesting ideas about how things come about, but science has proven those superstitious conclusions wrong time and time again. We now know that lightning is not something controlled by Zeus or Thor or Yahweh, that volcanic eruptions are not the work of Pele, that Poseidon does not control the seas (or Yahweh), that mental illness is not a demonic possession that can be cured through exorcism, but yet the human mind still persists in believing in the power of saints, talismans, holy water, incense, Gods revealed in clouds, wood and graffiti. And you wonder why some of us look at you askance and in utter confusion as how you can call those primitive peoples wrong and deluded, yet believe in your own primitively created God with total faith. And somehow, science and the atheist or agnostic are the ones delusional, we are somehow missing something so obvious and pervasive even the strongest telescope, or microscope cannot discern its true origin. Perhaps someday science will come across something that can be called a “divine” essence that is present in all living, organic creatures – that single substance responsible for all life – or perhaps science already has and it just didn’t come out as Jesus.

In the end, the fantasies of childhood give way when maturity, reason and knowledge replace the myths. Once upon a time I use to believe in seven headed dragons, unicorns, fairy god-mothers, nymphs, leprechauns, sprites, leviathans, witches with the power to control the weather, boogey men hiding in my closet, fire breathing demons, psychics, ouija boards and all sorts of none sense. Along with that went my belief in Gods and Goddesses, some far more preferable to the cruel JC God and it is my hope for all people that someday the relinquish their childhood fantasies and embrace reality.

I shall think for you.

B

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

free12thinker

I've tried to bring this single point up in most of my responses, but alas, WJ and the gang do not even respond to it.

They can't avoid it forever though (or can they).

I imagine that if they answer the call, they will simply state the Science and logic do not pertain to something as awesome (and therefore) untouchable as God.



And with that comes another eyeroll from my direction.

brighid

"The dreams, imaginations and fears of a child are far more vivid and real than those of a modern adult, and primitive man was always something of a child. He was nearer to the animals also, and he could suppose them to have motives and reactions like his own. He could imagine animal helpers, animal enemies, animal gods. One needs to have been an imaginative child oneself to realize again how important, significant, portentous or friendly, strangely shaped rocks, lumps of wood, exceptional trees or the like may have appeared to the men of the Old Stone Age, and how dream and fancy would create stories and legends about such things that would become credible as they told them. Some of these stories would be good enough to remember and tell again. The women would tell them to the children and so establish a tradition. To this day most imaginative children invent long stories in which some favourite doll or animal or some fantastic semihuman being figures as the hero, and primitive man probably did the same—with a much stronger disposition to believe his hero real."

<a href="http://www.bartleby.com/86/12.html" target="_blank">http://www.bartleby.com/86/12.html</a>

WJ

Well, to tell you the truth, I was going to go point by point and respond to all the arguments from late last week...then I was simply going to summarize thus far...now, I see science and logic rearing its ugly head. If I get time tomorrow I'll try to respond, but the argument again will be circular viz. the default position.

Anyway, along this line, someone said that they soley relyed on logic and science for every explaination of 'their' existence. Of course, that is, rather humrous, as it is only part of the puzzle and, is by no means a complete and comprehensive systematic view of human conscious existence. And of course, currently, there are gaps that would require a continued faith in science itself, if that is the means and method that one is attempting to hang one's hat on. So I'm wondering what the argument is there?

I'm just wondering too, currently, how logic and science explains the human condition? Could an atheist here please stand up to the plate and convince me thru logic and science that the default position is the correct one?

The facts are, thru logic and science, that an atheist can't [not that you're required to]. How can you? What follows?

What did I miss oh great leaders?!
(?)

Walrus

Kamchatka

Originally posted by Samhain, 5/10/02

"Um, wrong! god belief exists. No amount of belief will make a god itself exist. Sorry!"

If you were half as intelligent as you blindly imagine yourself you would be worshipped as Muhammed and the god he brought into existence are 1,300 years after his death.

I do not worship allah, but I am convinced that allah exists through the sheer power of Islam. Anyone who does not recognize the power of allah is naive and in grave danger.

I respect the power of allah through Islam and understand they are an adversary.

No amount of "no god belief" will erase allah's existence.