Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Philosoft · 02-20-2003, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
Yes, I am subject to all of God's moral commands, and he will eventually judge me for what I've done. No, God couldn't have made moral standards that are different. Even God is "limited" by his own nature.

I understand this poses massive problems for a coherent concept of "omnipotent." There were several discussions on this board related to that; I'll see if I can find some of them.

Quote:

Since it is God's nature to be perfectly good, holy, just, righteous, loving, etc., his morality will have to be what it must be. It is not possible for God to oppose himself.

This presupposes a standard beyond God. How could you possibly demonstrate such a thing exists, much less what it proscribes?

Shadowy Man · 02-20-2003, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft
Saddam needs to show that, not only is it in his best interest, but it would be in our best interests as well, to gas the Kurds.

He'd also have to show that it is in the Kurds' best interest.

Philosoft · 02-20-2003, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
He'd also have to show that it is in the Kurds' best interest.

Indeed. Thanks for the assist.

Keith · 02-20-2003, 10:40 AM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Philosoft

"Interesting. Can you explain how self-authentification works? If I were to write a book that consisted of two sentences:

1. Keith is the most powerful jellybean in the universe.
2. The above sentence is true.

Would that qualify as "internal proof"?

Can you think of any other pieces of literature that share this astonishing ability?

And this seems to you like a fair test to determine the destination of our eternal souls?"

The bible makes tens of thousands of historical, moral, social, and other assertions about reality which it claims to be factual. As such, the bible opens itself up to refutation or verification. Some books make no claims to represent truth at all. Both Christians and non-Christians have subjected the claims of the bible to more intense, rigorous scrutiny than any other set of documents in the world. The bible's flag is still waving.

Keith

Keith · 02-20-2003, 10:50 AM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Philosoft

"Saddam needs to show that, not only is it in his best interest, but it would be in our best interests as well, to gas the Kurds."

Do you see how arbitrary you atheists are on this, and other questions concerning morality? You seem unsure of what set of circumtances would justify Saddam's gassing of the Kurds! On the question of whether or not murder is objectively a moral wrong, I've heard yes and no. Do any of you know? If so, how do you know?

Keith

Keith · 02-20-2003, 10:55 AM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Shadowy Man

"He'd also have to show that it is in the Kurds' best interest."

Can you please explain how it could possibly be in the Kurds best interest to get gassed to death?

And if there are good reasons to commit murder and mass-murder, is there any possible moral justification for a war against terrorism?

Keith

Keith · 02-20-2003, 11:00 AM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Philosoft

"This presupposes a standard beyond God. How could you possibly demonstrate such a thing exists, much less what it proscribes?"

Can you tell my why this presupposes a standard beyond God?

Keith

Keith · 02-20-2003, 11:13 AM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by Answerer

"More and more proofs of an uncaring God, His unwillingnness to express Himself well to the World."

He has expressed himself clearly through the bible. You don't believe it because you don't want to believe.

Keith

Eikonoklast · 02-20-2003, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith
Do you see how arbitrary you atheists are on this, and other questions concerning morality? You seem unsure of what set of circumtances would justify Saddam's gassing of the Kurds! On the question of whether or not murder is objectively a moral wrong, I've heard yes and no. Do any of you know? If so, how do you know?

Keith

I've already demonstrated that murder is objectively immoral. You don't seem to want to comment on my post though.

You yourself, have NOT demonstrated how god's morality is objective. Please let's make this a two way conversation. You like to ask a lot of questions yet you give no answers yourself. You must support your assertions if you want a serious response.

Again: HOW IS GOD'S MORALITY, FROM GOD'S POINT OF VIEW, OBJECTIVE, AND NOT SUBJECTIVE AND ARBITRARY?

Keith · 02-20-2003, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman

"I disagree. The believers are not content simply to worship gods: they insist on inflicting their gods on us, declare that they have sets of laws from gods which everyone else must follow, and genrally make life painful for those who refuses to believe in their myths.
That is why atheists are so heavily involved in debates about whether gods exist."

"Inflicting", "make life painful"...it almost sounds as though you're saying that believers are doing morally wrong things that could be threatening your rights. Assuming that you have personal rights (indefensible as that is on your worldview), how would you, as an atheist, know "right" from "wrong"? If it is morally wrong for believers to inflict their gods on you, how do you know this is morally wrong?

Keith

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