Radorth

Re: Tercel and "once saved always saved"

Actually I never heard that, and that is not why I believe one remains saved. I believe God does not save anyone he knows will turn against him or will later be lost, so I guess my belief is based on his omniscience, as well as certain scriptures.

Rad

Tercel

I'd seem to remember hearing "1%", but you might well be right. Although intellectual boards such as this are probably biased towards "INT"s.
A square peg? Hmm... sometimes. But it's always more fun when you get to make your own hole.

You need to read more carefully. I said I'm not married... unlike Seebs.
What's with the "teacher" bit? I thought it was INTPs that made good teachers and that we were supposed to marry an extraverted organiser to bring us into line. ( )



For the record, if anybody cares: From the looks of it I sit a lot closer to the "Reason" end of the "Faith-Reason" spectrum than does Sabine. Or at least: I like to think I do.

Buffman

Sabine,

I agree! Saying that one doesn't know, or that one believes exclusively on the basis of faith, are perfectly fine answers as far as I am concerned. That isn't the issue.

Reason prevails in your choices of thoughts Buffman.... but your reason will be limited when it comes to the concept of " what happens after death".

Why will they be limited? There is no concept involved. You are either dead or alive. That middle ground is make-believe. When you provide verifiable evidence for resurrection, I will examine it. Language does not constitute verifiable evidence.

Neither you or I can use logic or reason to prove that we detain the truth about " what happens after death"

Please speak only for yourself.

You cannot prove that there will be no more conscious state.... I cannot prove that there will be.

I don't have to prove it. You are the one claiminmg (Hoping) that there is. I ask you to prove your claim. I ask you to present the verifiable evidence that there is some sort of ghostly, self-aware, consciousness floating around for eternity after death.

You or I can only give honest answers such as " my belief is... or my opinion is.... or I do not know". We cannot prove it. Because there is no experience to relate to. None whatsoever.

Sabine, what is your understanding/definition of life? Unless you know, how can you possibly make such a definitive statement like the one above?

Seebs can experience God... so can I. I cannot prove God exists. None has ever proved there is no possibility God exists. There is limit to reason because we have yet to have discovered everything and experienced it. We cannot assert to detain full proof truth.

OK! If no one knows for sure, why do you believe that that is what you are experiencing? Why must it be something supernatural? Why must humans deify and worship it...if they can't even prove that it exists? Just for the sake of example, I experienced something every time I had hypoxia. Was that your God talking, guiding. controlling, listening to and demanding that I worship only Him? Sabine, I'm sorry! What you experience is what you have personally been led to believe is a supernatural spirit that can quarantee your eternal life.

Just as you experience something when someone sticks a loaded gun in your face, you are more than capable of experiencing other feelings that are self-initiated...and part and parcel of being a living, human, organism...but not as easily identified in relation to their actual stimulus. The ancients called them "spirits." The religious Master Manipulators called them "souls." I call them the genetically transmitted bio-chemo-electro activities of the "living" human brain/mind. Currently, though only on the fringes of accurate knowledge about how this all functions, I have far more verifiable evidence for my position than you do for yours. Do you wish to experience God on demand? Well, I suspect that there are a goodly number of synthetic chemicals that can help you do exactly that. Do you hear Satan talking to you inside your head? Well, there are drugs that can silence him. However, why do you wish to experience a supernatural God? To what real end? As proof that He can permit you to live for eternity as a self-aware consciousness floating around in the universe?

And what is "your" definition of Truth? (Look it up in the dictionary!)

What you percieve as shy intellectualism I percieve as wisedom.

Please! Think about what that statement implies. Are mutes the wisest humans? I believe that wisdom begins when humans realize just how little they really know or understand...and are unafraid to seek the most accurate knowledge they can. I believe that fear, ignorance and blind faith are nurtured by religious dogma...and when that dogma is challenged, it must resort to silence rather than expose the foundation upon which it exists.

Sabine, not many healthy/normal humans want to die...but every single one of them will...one way or another. If you are unable to deal with that, then you are perfectly in order to hide behind a superstitious belief in the supernatural...but you are still going to die, regardless. Long ago I recognized that fact and have attempted to "live" the best, most positive and productive life I know how for whatever time I have to live it rather than waste it wondering what will happen to "me" after "I" die. The "I/Me" will no longer exist. What's the big deal about living forever as a "spirit/soul?"

Radorth

You might want to examine Richard Carrier's writings, or read Carl Jung's "post-clinical-death" experience, among others. You don't get outside your library much do you?

Rad

Radorth

The INTP is the "designer" of all systems, even ones he is not experienced with. As I recall, s/he can teach college level OK but is lousy with kids.

The INTP and ENFJ (judicious teacher) are attracted and can have a deep relationship if they appreciate one anothers complimentary strengths. (A rare occurence I presume)

Regards,

Rad

Buffman

You might want to examine Richard Carrier's writings, or read Carl Jung's "post-clinical-death" experience, among others. You don't get outside your library much do you?

And you know absolutely nothing about accurate biology, do you? What do you know of Carl Jung and the Kabbalah?

http://www.newkabbalah.com/jung.html

scombrid

Then someone that was “born again” but claims atheism is lying to themselves, everybody else, and your alleged god. This assertion implies that someone that claims to have deconverted is lying about something any way you slice it. If they truly disbelieve, having never been “born again”, they are lying about having been a Christian. If they were “changed” before deconversion then they are lying about deconverting because once you’re changed, God has got you in the gotcha and you aren’t really deconverted. Do you not see how this is insulting to doubters, unbelievers, and believers that don’t hold to you rebirth doctrine? Additionally, if someone is truly “changed” when “born again” then I seriously doubt that they’d doubt, unless the change isn’t as profound as you say. Further, this sort of assertion renders knowing whether someone, or ourselves for that matter, is an atheist or believer impossible.

THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

Greetings once again, Radorth,

Allow me, if you will, to adress your concerns, shall we?

Originally posted by Radorth:
"I considered other posibilities, but disagree they were worth mentioning."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ahhhh yes, Rad not worth mentioning.. Of course, your original post made no mention at all that you even considered any other possibilities. For your consideration, I give you your own statement.
"Those who supposedy "fall away" permanently only do so for two or perhaps three reasons".

What followed was the bold statment, you are wrong, Radorth., referring, of course, to your attempts to restrict the options available to B.G. With this in mind, let us look once again at my comments, and your responses.

"I can't get this extremely unfriendly software to do anything but waste time, but the following are from the legendary one, with Rad speaking in italics"

Take it up with Bugs and Complaints.
I'll back you up on that one!

"The following options are just as likely as yours:

"We are we still in "humble opinion" mode I hope even though you put YOU ARE WRONG in bold, and seem convinced beyond any doubt of several other assertions."

My appologies, Radorth, for not differentiating between my forceful and "IMHO" statements. The situations I listed were designed as as alternatives to your rigidly defined ones, and they were expressed in INMHO mode.

"1. God does not exist."

"What does this have to do with the arguments going back and forth here? Most everyone else seems to be able to argue within some framework of how, why and who backslides"

Read my O.P, Radorth. You'll see that these options were given in the same spirit as yours: completely arbitrarily, with no supporting evidence. Since you seemed to be so fond of making incredible assertions with 0% corroborating evidence, I wanted you to be aware of the the vast array of unsubstantiated assertions available to you. Why limit yourself?

"2. The Christians are wrong about God, and He is very happy another soul has left Christianity."

This is not related to "falling away" and the reasons for it either. It seems you do not wish to address my argument in a meaningful way.

Perhaps not, but it has the exact ammount of credibility as your original attempts to restrict the reasons for a Christian deconverting.

"3. God, since He isn't so narcissistic and insecure that He would require slobbering worship from puny humans, doesn't care if people believe in Him or not at all. "

Of course this contradicts most atheist assertions about the Christian' God''s narcissism, so we can't call it "just as likely" since it has no support even from your "rational" peers.

Uhmm, huh? Please, oh puhleeeeze tell me you're not serious on that one!
The Biblical description of a supremely insecure, narcissistic, and glory hounding deity who creates human beings to stroke His holy ego has been the subject of many threads here on IIDB.

"4. God just wanted B.G tothink she was saved, just to toy with her mind."

"There is no such God in my Bible, because, as I pointed out with scripture, even people turned "over to Satan" are still saved."

Turned over to Satan?
Do you mean to tell me, that one can convert to Christianity, believe in all the dogmas, accept Christ into your heart, then, even if you come to the conclusion that the whole thing is bunk, even if you believe with 100% certainty that the God of Christianity is bogus, you're still "saved"?

*Apostate*. "I rebuke you, lord of Christianity! If I even acknowledged your existence, I would rather burn for eternity in the flames of Hell, than bow down in reverence at your feet!"

*God*. "Bwahahahahaha! You are Mine!!!! You cannot remove me! I now dwell in your heart, like heartworms in the heart of a dog, and you shell never expunge Me! Never, do ye hear Me!
I have saved you from Myself, and upon your death, I shall drag you into Heaven with Me, and you will worship me...FOREVER!!!!!

"5. God has predestined her to Hell, and has given her over to her unbelief. "

"A possibility I suppose. Take a half point"

Nope. I'll take a full point {as long as we're keeping score here!}. Good to see you acknowledging the possibility of predestination, Radorth, a concept that, if true, makes this whole conversation pointless. Yes, Rad, maybe...maybe...wait, entering...Rad...mode!

*Rad mode on* All those who fall away do so only because God has predestined them to Hell, and wants to use them as an example to those sheep that dare to not follow their Good shepherd. Perhaps there are other options, but they are certainly not worth discussing, though I'm sure many supposedly intelligent atheists will try, most likely resorting to their usual tactics of ad homs, distortions, and character assasinations.
*Rad mode off*.

Come to think of it, I'll take 2 points, actually.

Respect,
The Legendary HQB

Radorth

Oh heck no. I think they honestly believe they are no longer Christians. My comments about mind and heart prove that well enough.

"The heart has it's reasons the mind knows nothing of" I believe Pascal said.

To those less inclined to see witches and read minds, there are other options to your narrow assertions. They can honestly believe they were Christians as well. It's not about them lying at all.

It's funny how "rational thinking" ends where mind reading begins.

Rad

Radorth

Well OK, you deserve it for pointing out that I said "only." I should have said "With few exceptions."

Edited for an oops. I apparently have mixed up my (satire mode on) Inquisitors. My apologies.

Rad