Wayne Delia

That, of course, only holds authority if one happens to be Catholic, which I no longer am. But if it was actually true, it makes the character of Satan completely unnecessary to Christian theology, which is certainly surprising considering how much air time he got in the Bible. Specifically, in Revelation 12:9, Satan is described as the deceiver of the entire world. Also, in Genesis 3:13, Eve explains that the action resulting in the condemnation of mankind was caused by her being deceived by the serpent (which Revelation identifies as Satan). So, presuming the Catholic Church knows more about the Bible than the actual Bible authors, wouldn't you agree that the Bible is wrong in those instances? And, if you answer in the affirmative, what are the odds of you being struck by lightning?

WMD

markfiend

That's not the point. Imagine a group of people living in isolation (perhaps in the depths of the Amazonian rain forest) who practice something the Church considers to be immoral; such as group-marriage. Before contact with the Church, they are ignorant of this being a sin, and from your argument "if one has sinned without knowing they have sinned, God will not hold them responsible for the sin" they will not go to hell.

After they are told by your Church that such activity is sinful, they would either:

1. Carry on as before, and (therefore) go to hell
2. Change their behaviour, and go to heaven

I submit that there is a non-zero chance that state 1 would apply rather than state 2, therefore, by spreading the "Christian gospel" to these people, you are increasing their chances of going to hell (if hell is real).

Would it not be better for them just not to tell them that their activity is sinful?

SignOfTheCross

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Satan tempts us to make decisions that if acted upon cause us to sin. Satan cannot force us to do anything. Adam and Eve were not forced to eat from the tree but it was through their own free choice that they did so.

As for your second question, what's your point?

Peace,
SOTC

SignOfTheCross

Why do you assume state 1 would not apply? I believe this statement to be false.

Secondly, there is no guarantee one who does not know they sin will go to heaven. It is in our nature to choose evil over good, thus why we require a saviour because we cannot atain the grace needed for salvation on our own merits. It is baptism which saves, not ignorace. However, God may have mercy on someone who is ignorant of the Gospel message yet desires to lead a moral life.

Peace,
SOTC

shome42

SignofTheCross,

To my original post, you replied:

As another poster pointed out,

Revelation 12:9 says in the KJV Bible, "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

In Genesis 3:13, it says, "And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."

In the first instance, the Bible clearly says that Satan deceives. In the second quote from Gensis, Eve says the serpent "beguiled" her, which is a synonym for deceive.

To deceive means to "trick." You say Satan does not trick.

How are you going to wiggle out of this one????

What now?

SignOfTheCross

The original poster said "Can we then conclude that people aren't always responsible for their sins?".

The poster was under the impression that if the devil "tricks" us into sinning, it is not our fault. This is not the case. The devil can certainly deceive us, but it always involves some element of our own free will.

Peace,
SOTC

shome42

I am the original poster.

If the devil tricks us into sinning, which he has been proven to do through the Bible quotes I've posted, how can we be responsible for those sins?

You're assuming that every time we're tricked, we know we're being tricked into sinning. That's not necessarily the case. Couldn't the devil trick us into sinning without being obvious about it?

Ahh, in fact, the Devil could be so subtle in his trickery, that we don't even know we're being tricked:

2 Corinthians 11:3: "the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty"

So you see, it's possible the Devil is being so subtle that we don't even know we're sinning, and if we don't know we're sinning, then free will doesn't enter the picture.

For all you know, you've been tricked by Satan. The beliefs you hold dear could be a result of Satan's trickery. He's been so subtle in beguiling you, that you have no idea what's going on!

SignOfTheCross

Cause every sin committed isn't a result of Satans "trickery" but a conscious decision to do wrong. Being tricked by the devil isn't a sin.

Yes, atheism is a prime example of Satans trickery. Atheists are tricked into believing Jesus is a myth, the Bible is a joke and God is a sadistic war criminal, but these things are not sin.

Uh yes, if we "knew" we were being tricked, Satan wouldn't be doing his job well.

Yes it does because trickery and free will co-exist.

Very possible!

Peace,
SOTC

shome42

Great, so if God does exist, he's not gonna be pissed.

Sweet, glad we could work that out.

SignOfTheCross

Here I will quote Aquinas to clear up any confusion, or false hope you may have.

"Unbelief may be taken in two ways: first, by way of pure negation, so that a man be called an unbeliever, merely because he has not the faith. Secondly, unbelief may be taken by way of opposition to the faith; in which sense a man refuses to hear the faith, or despises it, according to Is. 53:1: "Who hath believed our report?" It is this that completes the notion of unbelief, and it is in this sense that unbelief is a sin.

If, however, we take it by way of pure negation, as we find it in those who have heard nothing about the faith, it bears the character, not of sin, but of punishment, because such like ignorance of Divine things is a result of the sin of our first parent. If such like unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without faith, but not on account of their sin of unbelief. Hence Our Lord said (Jn. 15:22) "If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin"; which Augustine expounds (Tract. lxxxix in Joan.) as "referring to the sin whereby they believed not in Christ."

Peace,
SOTC