Freethought & Rationalism Archive

philechat · 02-23-2003, 09:37 PM

Want me to quote Ovid's Metamorphoses again? For the love of the Roman deities, the "dying-and-rising savior" motif is found in this pre-Christian book in complete details. The widespread beliefs of these savior-cults in the Ancient Roman world is probably the origin of this Jesus story:

"So now the prophetic frenzy gripped her mind, and the god's presense set her breast aglow. She looked upon the babe, and said:'grow and prosper, my child, you who are destined to bring health to all the world. Often mortal men will own their lives to you, and you will be granted the right to restore those who are already dead; till, in one case, you will incur the gods' displeasure by daring to do so, and will be prevented by your grandfather's bolt from ever again bestowing such a boon. From an immortal god you will be reduced to a lifeless corpse, but later, from being a corpse, you will be raised up to be a god again, and will twice renew your destiny."

The dying-and-rising savior motif is found in many world religions. The figures of Hercules, Dionysus, Orpheus, Osirus, Adonis, and Prosepine are all savior-figures in Ancient Rome. In China there is Lin Mo-Niang, No-Tcha, and Mou-Lien. In the ancient Aztec society there is Quetzacoatl. The parallels between the NT and many world myths are glaring.

Jobar · 02-23-2003, 10:17 PM

Magus55, this thread has not really addressed the forum topic since page 1. As diana pointed out, we do have a forum specifically for analysis of the Bible, and so I am moving this thread there. J.

lpetrich · 02-23-2003, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Well no i can't rule out any of them but since i believe in the Bible as absolute truth and have faith in God - as well as having not even a tiny tiny tiny shred of evidence or claim that those gods exist - i don't plan on ever converting.

But you are the guy who claimed that our knowledge is so teeny, teeny, teeny tiny.

So if it's King Minos that you are up against in the next world, then what?

lpetrich · 02-23-2003, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Silent Dave
This is, I believe, the same Ray Comfort who had his keister handed to him on a silver platter during an AA debate. ...

Any details?

lpetrich · 02-23-2003, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Well there is plenty of evidence, its just not the kind you want. You rely on faith for everything else you do and take in life. You weren't there during Roman or Greek or Nepoleans days so you take faith the the historical books written by eyewitness accounts or of the person themselves to be factual. Same with religion. ...

Like the sacred books of every religion but yours? Do you think that the Iliad is an accurate history of the Trojan War? Do you think that the Mahabharat War had happened as described, including the Ruler of the Universe appearing in the person of Arjuna's charioteer?

lpetrich · 02-23-2003, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
... Fact is, Bible has been proven more accurate than other historical writings ...

More accurate than

Herodotus
Thucydides
Strabo
Polybius
Plutarch
Suetonius
Tacitus

???

Especially when there are oodles of ancient Greek and Roman artifacts that confirm their accounts, like inscriptions on various structures, coins, etc.

So shall we believe in the deities of Mt. Olympus?

Magus55 · 02-23-2003, 11:12 PM

Yes even more accurate than them.

There are tablets and inscriptions attesting to the validity of the Bible.

http://www.carm.org/questions/trustbible.htm

lpetrich · 02-23-2003, 11:17 PM

Magus55:
There is evidence of the flood, there are other written accounts by other civilizations existing when the flood happened.

This more properly belongs in Evolution/Creation, but I'll comment here. Noah's Flood had allegedly destroyed all of humanity except for Noah and his family, so those others could not have had such firsthand knowledge of Noah's Flood.

Furthermore, there is absolutely zero geological evidence for Noah's Flood. Seeming evidence of that flood, like sedimentary rocks, was almost all laid down before humanity appeared on our planet -- sometimes hundreds of millions before.

Jesus was born of a virgin ...

Hmmm... like Romulus and Remus being sons of a god and a virgin?

Magus55 · 02-24-2003, 12:29 AM

Um, the Babylons wrote on a tablet describing the flood of Noah. I'm very sure that they could have written down the flood as it was happening up until the writer was killed, and the tablet remains as one of the few relics left over before the flood.

Anyway more evidence to Jesus' prophecy and the existance of God - but we'll exame statistics and probability now.

http://theronnows.com/rational.htm

Quite fascinating even for a believer.

They can accurately use mathematics to determine the odds of things. The odds of all the protein combinations needed to form life happening randomly ( as in evolution and the big bang) are 1 in 10 to the 40,000th power - need i even elaborate how absolutely huge that number is?

And it also verifies the point i made about the odds of one man fulfilling 48 prophecies by coincidence. 1 out of 10 to the 157th power - yet Jesus fulfilled almost 300, with a few that have yet to be fulfilled in his second coming.

So you see, it is a mathematical, scientific, impossibility for God to not exist and for Jesus to not be who he claimed he was.

Vorkosigan · 02-24-2003, 01:27 AM

Vorko, sorry i'm not even gonna bother since you are just taking all my statements and saying Nope didn't happen without any evidence on your own part disproving it.

I have already posted a passage from Crossan, as well as references to major scholars. I have no idea where you got the that "I am just saying "nope." There's not much else you can say to the claim that Jesus tomb has been found. I mean, it hasn't!

But I'll humor you. Can you give a reference for the finding of Jesus' tomb?

The link i posted that you chose not to read talks about non-biblical recordings of his death and ressurection - including roman writings of Tacitus, Seutonius, Thallus, and Pliny and Jewish writings from Josephus and the Talmud.

This is all old stuff and long ago disproven. Suetonius does not mention Jesus at all, he merely discusses "Chrestus" which may be a reference to "Christ" but no one really knows -- it was a common Roman name.

Tacitus, writing about 117 or so, mentions Christians and their beliefs. Unfortunately the source of his record is unknown, and probably represents nothing more than what he had heard from others.

Thallus is worthless as a reference to Jesus. See Richard Carrier's article in our library at here

Pliny does not refer to Jesus' death and resurrection. See complete text here

The passage in Josephus' is highly controversial and appears to be extensively interpolated. See Peter Kirby's huge website on this controversy at www.earlychristianwritings.com. Read all the discussions there. As a historical reference it is interesting but useless.

The Talmud is all over the place on Jesus' death. Some references place it more than 100 years before the Bible does.

There are also cites to 39 ancient writings outside the Bible describing and attesting to Jesus' death and ressurection, including 17 non Christian ones.

LOL. These would be? I mean, you realize that not a single contemporary refers to him, and he does not crop outside the OT until until Josephus in 95? Can you give the names of these 17 non-Christian writings that claim Jesus was resurrected?

Probably more historical writings witnessing it than there are for Columbus.

C'mon. You can't be serious. Do you realize that Columbus' own known writings exceed the New Testament in length? Here's a page of links on Columbus:
http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/d.../columbus.html
There's no comparison, historically, between the two. We know of Jesus from no contemporary author, and he left no writings from his own hand.

So you can't possibly follow your methods of believing in people like Columbus and completely admiss the numerous records of Jesus. Thats illogical.

No. You are simply repeating apologetic claims without checking them out yourself...

And the apostles weren't martyrs just for what they believed, they were martyred for what they saw and wrote first hand.

There is no solid historical evidence that any of the apostles were martyred. This could well be a later Christian claim. In any case, nobody really knows when or why they died.

How many atheists seriously do extensive research into Christianity before dismissing it? I've present numerous arguments, evidencial proofs, testimonies, eyewitness accounts, and archaeological findings to the validity of the Bible and Jesus. Yet you don't even take a second glance at them before dismissing them as being invalid.

Been there. Done that. As you can see, the reason nobody pays attention to your historical evidence is that there isn't any.

Jesus fulfilled prophecies so astronomical it would be impossible for any other mortal human to do so. And the odds of 1 out of 10 to the 157th are only for fulling 48 prophecies!! there are 252 more!

Ummm...this is because the NT was created out of these "prophecies." See the Crossan quote I referenced above. In few cases are any of them about the messiah, and none refer to Jesus.

Tell you what. Select the five best "prophecies" and we'll see how they apply.

The accuracy of the copies of the Bible are nearly perfect. More so than any other written historical document ever found.

Horse manure. The copies of the Bible have numerous errors, well known to anyone who has done the research. See The Text of the New Testament : Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration by Metzger, or Ehrman's The Text of the New Testament in Contemporary Research and of course, Aland and Aland's The Text of the New Testament an Introduction to the Critical Editions and to the Theory and Practice of Modern Textual Criticism. The New Testament Gateway has an excellent bio and articles on stuff like this.

David said how Jesus would die, in detail before Crucifixtion was even invented.

Wrong on two counts. Crucifixion is a very ancient punishment. Also, can you give the exact location of this? Also, how is it that so many scholars hold to the opposite view, that the NT writers built their stories out of the OT.

The sites of Jesus' miracles were found by Archaeologists just as it says in the Bible.

Which ones? Cites please.

i did extensive studying and i can't accept myself as a person by denying all the evidence iv'e seen.

Ah! You've read the historical evidence! Great! Where in Tacitus does it say Jesus was resurrected?

Vorkosigan

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-23-2003, 09:37 PM	#71
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	Want me to quote Ovid's Metamorphoses again? For the love of the Roman deities, the "dying-and-rising savior" motif is found in this pre-Christian book in complete details. The widespread beliefs of these savior-cults in the Ancient Roman world is probably the origin of this Jesus story: "So now the prophetic frenzy gripped her mind, and the god's presense set her breast aglow. She looked upon the babe, and said:'grow and prosper, my child, you who are destined to bring health to all the world. Often mortal men will own their lives to you, and you will be granted the right to restore those who are already dead; till, in one case, you will incur the gods' displeasure by daring to do so, and will be prevented by your grandfather's bolt from ever again bestowing such a boon. From an immortal god you will be reduced to a lifeless corpse, but later, from being a corpse, you will be raised up to be a god again, and will twice renew your destiny." The dying-and-rising savior motif is found in many world religions. The figures of Hercules, Dionysus, Orpheus, Osirus, Adonis, and Prosepine are all savior-figures in Ancient Rome. In China there is Lin Mo-Niang, No-Tcha, and Mou-Lien. In the ancient Aztec society there is Quetzacoatl. The parallels between the NT and many world myths are glaring.

02-23-2003, 10:17 PM	#72
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Magus55, this thread has not really addressed the forum topic since page 1. As diana pointed out, we do have a forum specifically for analysis of the Bible, and so I am moving this thread there. J.

02-23-2003, 11:12 PM	#77
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Yes even more accurate than them. There are tablets and inscriptions attesting to the validity of the Bible. http://www.carm.org/questions/trustbible.htm

02-23-2003, 11:17 PM	#78
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Magus55: There is evidence of the flood, there are other written accounts by other civilizations existing when the flood happened. This more properly belongs in Evolution/Creation, but I'll comment here. Noah's Flood had allegedly destroyed all of humanity except for Noah and his family, so those others could not have had such firsthand knowledge of Noah's Flood. Furthermore, there is absolutely zero geological evidence for Noah's Flood. Seeming evidence of that flood, like sedimentary rocks, was almost all laid down before humanity appeared on our planet -- sometimes hundreds of millions before. Jesus was born of a virgin ... Hmmm... like Romulus and Remus being sons of a god and a virgin?

02-24-2003, 12:29 AM	#79
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Um, the Babylons wrote on a tablet describing the flood of Noah. I'm very sure that they could have written down the flood as it was happening up until the writer was killed, and the tablet remains as one of the few relics left over before the flood. Anyway more evidence to Jesus' prophecy and the existance of God - but we'll exame statistics and probability now. http://theronnows.com/rational.htm Quite fascinating even for a believer. They can accurately use mathematics to determine the odds of things. The odds of all the protein combinations needed to form life happening randomly ( as in evolution and the big bang) are 1 in 10 to the 40,000th power - need i even elaborate how absolutely huge that number is? And it also verifies the point i made about the odds of one man fulfilling 48 prophecies by coincidence. 1 out of 10 to the 157th power - yet Jesus fulfilled almost 300, with a few that have yet to be fulfilled in his second coming. So you see, it is a mathematical, scientific, impossibility for God to not exist and for Jesus to not be who he claimed he was.

02-24-2003, 01:27 AM	#80
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Vorko, sorry i'm not even gonna bother since you are just taking all my statements and saying Nope didn't happen without any evidence on your own part disproving it. I have already posted a passage from Crossan, as well as references to major scholars. I have no idea where you got the that "I am just saying "nope." There's not much else you can say to the claim that Jesus tomb has been found. I mean, it hasn't! But I'll humor you. Can you give a reference for the finding of Jesus' tomb? The link i posted that you chose not to read talks about non-biblical recordings of his death and ressurection - including roman writings of Tacitus, Seutonius, Thallus, and Pliny and Jewish writings from Josephus and the Talmud. This is all old stuff and long ago disproven. Suetonius does not mention Jesus at all, he merely discusses "Chrestus" which may be a reference to "Christ" but no one really knows -- it was a common Roman name. Tacitus, writing about 117 or so, mentions Christians and their beliefs. Unfortunately the source of his record is unknown, and probably represents nothing more than what he had heard from others. Thallus is worthless as a reference to Jesus. See Richard Carrier's article in our library at here Pliny does not refer to Jesus' death and resurrection. See complete text here The passage in Josephus' is highly controversial and appears to be extensively interpolated. See Peter Kirby's huge website on this controversy at www.earlychristianwritings.com. Read all the discussions there. As a historical reference it is interesting but useless. The Talmud is all over the place on Jesus' death. Some references place it more than 100 years before the Bible does. There are also cites to 39 ancient writings outside the Bible describing and attesting to Jesus' death and ressurection, including 17 non Christian ones. LOL. These would be? I mean, you realize that not a single contemporary refers to him, and he does not crop outside the OT until until Josephus in 95? Can you give the names of these 17 non-Christian writings that claim Jesus was resurrected? Probably more historical writings witnessing it than there are for Columbus. C'mon. You can't be serious. Do you realize that Columbus' own known writings exceed the New Testament in length? Here's a page of links on Columbus: http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/d.../columbus.html There's no comparison, historically, between the two. We know of Jesus from no contemporary author, and he left no writings from his own hand. So you can't possibly follow your methods of believing in people like Columbus and completely admiss the numerous records of Jesus. Thats illogical. No. You are simply repeating apologetic claims without checking them out yourself... And the apostles weren't martyrs just for what they believed, they were martyred for what they saw and wrote first hand. There is no solid historical evidence that any of the apostles were martyred. This could well be a later Christian claim. In any case, nobody really knows when or why they died. How many atheists seriously do extensive research into Christianity before dismissing it? I've present numerous arguments, evidencial proofs, testimonies, eyewitness accounts, and archaeological findings to the validity of the Bible and Jesus. Yet you don't even take a second glance at them before dismissing them as being invalid. Been there. Done that. As you can see, the reason nobody pays attention to your historical evidence is that there isn't any. Jesus fulfilled prophecies so astronomical it would be impossible for any other mortal human to do so. And the odds of 1 out of 10 to the 157th are only for fulling 48 prophecies!! there are 252 more! Ummm...this is because the NT was created out of these "prophecies." See the Crossan quote I referenced above. In few cases are any of them about the messiah, and none refer to Jesus. Tell you what. Select the five best "prophecies" and we'll see how they apply. The accuracy of the copies of the Bible are nearly perfect. More so than any other written historical document ever found. Horse manure. The copies of the Bible have numerous errors, well known to anyone who has done the research. See The Text of the New Testament : Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration by Metzger, or Ehrman's The Text of the New Testament in Contemporary Research and of course, Aland and Aland's The Text of the New Testament an Introduction to the Critical Editions and to the Theory and Practice of Modern Textual Criticism. The New Testament Gateway has an excellent bio and articles on stuff like this. David said how Jesus would die, in detail before Crucifixtion was even invented. Wrong on two counts. Crucifixion is a very ancient punishment. Also, can you give the exact location of this? Also, how is it that so many scholars hold to the opposite view, that the NT writers built their stories out of the OT. The sites of Jesus' miracles were found by Archaeologists just as it says in the Bible. Which ones? Cites please. i did extensive studying and i can't accept myself as a person by denying all the evidence iv'e seen. Ah! You've read the historical evidence! Great! Where in Tacitus does it say Jesus was resurrected? Vorkosigan

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.