Indifference

To be honest, i'm going to have to admit when i'm wrong. wait... listen... did you hear that? It was the sound of my ego screeming in aggony.

<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

but to my defence, i never said ALL atheist were intelligent. And i also will still insist that most of the members here are. and my personal aquaintances of non-belief are as well. But it is quite possible that i am simply a victim of chance.

I guess where i went wrong was broad generalizations. I should know better. Atheists are often generalized as satan worshipers, immoral, etc...

Gurdur

lol, look, like I said, please forgive me if I sound really sharp on this issue, or if I give the impression of wanting to jump down people's throats and club them to death with their own tonsils.

I don't mean to be repressive of discussion on this topic, and I don't want to sound like the vicious bastard that I am, I just care about this issue.

Let's keep egos and individual existential existences seperate from the issues, OK ?

[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

Indifference

case

All fantasy aside, I highly doubt Christianity will come to an end anytime soon. I think to attribute the popularity of xianity today to brainwashing of children is to grossly misunderstand the situation, and the human mind in general. The number of adult converts should tell us that there's more to the survival of religion than brainwashing children.

I would like to think that theists and atheists (and anyone else, for that matter) can learn to live in some kind of harmony, the Jerry Falwell's of the world not withstanding. Because in the end, we have to. Theists aren't going anywhere anytime soon; neither are we. So I think it might be wise to try and understand each other, instead of engaging in flame-wars.

Then we get accused of causing the 9/11 thing...

Samhain

case:

This could easily be attributed to socialization. If theistic beliefs are ingrained within the socialization process of a child, then, as we see through psychology, it becomes very hard for that person to break those bonds, even as a rational adult. It's no different or less natural for said theist than learning how to read.

The enlightened will never be able to coexist, in harmony, with the ignorant. Notice this statement can work for both a theist or an atheist. I think first that theists must learn to cope with others with different theistic beliefs before they could even begin to accept us.

How can one even begin to understand the other when we both "know" what is true. If theists would take an atheistic standpoint regarding others of different religions, or non-religion in our case, then perhaps we could co-exist in a somewhat peaceful state. But as soon as a theist begins preaching about how I should live my life according to 2000+ year old fairy-tales and superstitions, then that peace is broken.

case

Samhain,

You wrote,

The enlightened will never be able to coexist, in harmony, with the ignorant.

I don't know excactly what you mean by this. I suppose that would depend on your definition of enlightened. I don't know much about string theory, but that doesn't mean I can't have a harmonious relationship with a string theorist. Just because someone believes something you do not does not make them ignorant.

I think what you are getting at is "bible thumping" from hard-core fundies. While I certainly don't support it, I don't think it's a trait inherint to just theists. No, I know too many militant atheists who rail just as hard, only for the opposite cause. I'm not very fond of them either. So, while we all find humuor at the expense of Falwell and friends, I think lumping all theists together into the same catagory is over-simplifying the issue just a bit.

I do agree with you about ingrained socialization, though not necessarily in children. I think there is enough social influence for adults to conform to the status quo, which would be theistic belief.

sighhswolf

case
Secular Web Regular
Member # 5433
posted April 21, 2002 12:28 AM
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All fantasy aside, I highly doubt Christianity will come to an end anytime soon. I think to attribute the popularity of xianity today to brainwashing of children is to grossly misunderstand the situation, and the human mind in general. The number of adult converts should tell us that there's more to the survival of religion than brainwashing children.

There is a point that I seldom see anyone talk about in the "survival of religion".
It is easy to overlook certain realtime facts when you are discussing such an emotional and irrational subject as christianity and it's ultimate survival.
We must not forget that christianity is a business.
There are billions and billions of dollars being made world wide by the sale and upkeep of Jesus.
If suddenly tommorrow christianity would cease to exist, the entire world economy would be in serious trouble.
Think how many support businesses make their profits by supplying services to religious organizations, the religions of the world and in particular christianity have huge financial holdings, land holdings, and they also have
developed unbreakable bonds within most political systems.
Even though the constitution and the treaty of Tripoli specifically state they should be no favoritism of one religion over another in the US,
we all are aware of the faith based programs of the present administration.
Christianity may reach a point where the actual
numbers of followers will begin to decline, but the absolute truth is that it would be a financial disaster if the power base of christianity began to erode, and I am quite sure that those who are in power will not let this happen.
Christianity is a very powerful asset for political figures, it can establish a signifcant
number of constituents with nothing but an acknowledgement by the candidate of he/she being a "christian".
No, the demise of christianity will not be seen as long as it continues to provide financial gains
and political power......and the actual "spirituality" of it's followers will have very little effect on it's eventual death.
Wolf

Gurdur

Sigh, again this simply begs the question, and ignores case's point, as well as my own little contributions to this thread.
Again, such a theory explains nothing about the the origins and developments of religion.

Gaaaaaahh, fiddlesticks. Unless you want to define "ignorant" as "being willing to chop up others at the drop of a hat", then this statement is meaningless.

Luckily, owing to the humanist response over the centuries, many theists have learnt something of how to accept different believers and even agnostics and atheists.

Well, this is a very defeatist statement, no ?
More indicative of a closed mind than a rational analysis.


Bah, I get my poor little ears hammered all the time by American Libertarians telling me how to think, yet even despite my loathing for them, I'm quite sure I can live alongside of them without too many real problems. Same with many theists.

Indifference

sighhswolf said:<strong>There are billions and billions of dollars being made world wide by the sale and upkeep of Jesus.
If suddenly tommorrow christianity would cease to exist, the entire world economy would be in serious trouble. </strong>

noone is suggesting that it will suddenly dissapear. I'm not even suggesting that we can stop the brainwashing immediately all at once. so the economic problem is not an issue. economies adapt over time just like anything else.

<strong>faith based programs</strong>

faith based programs need not be abandoned. they just need a more realistic foundation. there's no reason the YMCA needs to crumble when christianity does. Instead we might just rename it to YMA.

<strong>Christianity is a very powerful asset for political figures, it can establish a signifcant
number of constituents with nothing but an acknowledgement by the candidate of he/she being a "christian".</strong>

as the ratio of theists to atheists reverses, the opposite will be true. atheists will be the powerful constituents. Majority rules, and we are simply not the majority.

sighhswolf

Yea and what planet will we be on when that happens........there will never in our lifetimes be a reversal of power from the pious to the non-believers.
To even suggest that this may eventually be a reality is wishful thinking.
Faith based programs have nothing to do with the YMCA or any other christian organizations, they are federal grants and legislation designed in such a way as to favor Christianity over all other forms of religion in the US, with special funding, and exempt tax status and backdoor covert
lawmaking designed to placate the Christian right that has given Mr. Bush financial backing and helped him gain office.
These being the pet projects of a self proclaimed " born again" christian president, who has violated the constitution he has taken a vow to uphold, every single time he stands and proudly proclaims this country to be a "Christian Nation", and it is damned sickening.

The majority does not rule in the United States
and anyone who believes that needs to take a long and serious look into the reality of politics and political science.
The present administration was NOT Elected into office, it was for all intensive purposes appointed to office by the power structure.
That power structure was able to demonize the last administration very effectively, and created a backlash against the perception of a president with "loose morals" in "league with Satan" with the battle cry of getting the nation back to god.
YUCK !
Money rules in American politics, plain and simple.
The candidates will aquire office only through the backing of the richest and most powerful groups and individuals, and right now the christian right rules and has the financial clout
to get what they want.
And as long as these "godbots" continue to provide financial support for the christian lobby
and the "right to lifers" and allow themselves to be duped into thinking they have elected some candidate to office that they actually WANTED to be there, nothing is going to change.
After all is said and done my friend, we as non-believers must realize and come to grips with the fact that christianity has not survived for over 2000 years based on purity, pious and godly individuals, and the message they preach.
It has survived because it made itself powerful and rich and has no problem with deception, clandestine activities, and it's garnering of political clout to gain legislation designed to favor it's position.
And of course we must not forget that Christianity has had a very simplistic approach to the worlds population.
Either you are a christian and you believe in the christian doctrine or you will be eliminated as a
problem.
If you worship some other god, then you are in violation of the first commandment, if you do not choose to convert, then forced conversion was always an option, in the early christian conquests.
If the target group or culture is too large to be forceably converted, then a political "war" may become a necessity. ( of course no self respecting christian would ever admit to the cause of a "war" being waged on another country because of differences in religious preferences, although I really dont see why they just dont go ahead and announce the intention to wipe another religious sect of the face of the earth...heck the Muslims do it all the time).
I probably sound jaded and cynical, and that is because I am.
Of course this is based on my personal experience with the political system and with the US legal system, both by the way have been so abused as to be laughable.
The court system will throw some guy in jail for failure to pay alimony to an ex wife and actually ruin a life, but allow murderers to walk away from prosecution free as a bird.
Power and money talks...bullcrap walks.
The holders of power and financial resources, and the control of political clout now belong to the religious organizations, specifically the Christian right and they will not be given up easily, that is the reality of the situation.
It does not matter what anyone of us thinks, christian or non-believer because we do not run this country as citizens, how many people go to the polls and vote?
And what difference is a vote when the supreme court can appoint a president on a whim?
And how many supreme court justices are atheists?
or non-believers?
Yes there are many Americans who are highly educated, well versed in political science, researchers, scholars and academics, teachers and instructors who are non-believers.
But just as my experience with interviewing some folks at MIT proves, many of those influential
and respected people who have the power to make changes and buck the system dont....because they are funded by government grants, their research is tied to financial assistence usually from government sources who have been put into place by guess who?
Nothing is about to change.. but we can hope that eventually this plague of organized religion will be stemmed and reversed, but dont hold your breath for that day to arrive.
Wolf