Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Shake · 11-22-2002, 10:01 AM

Are you really concerned about 'life' or consciousness? Plants are alive, but are they counscious? I think not. The concepts of 'I', the self, etc. have been studied and struggled with for centuries. It's hard to say if we'll be able to ever figure that out.

I'm currently reading Godel, Escher, Bach by Douglas R. Hofstadter, and he touches upon some of these ideas (among many others). The part I'm at right now is talking about the process of DNA and how new proteins and enzymes are constructed, RNA's role in the whole process, and a kind of a "which came first" between the ribosome or the protein (since ribosomes are made of proteins, but ribsomes also make proteins...).

Anyway, if you're also into number theory, philosophy, the concept of mind vs. brain, etc., pick up a copy of GEB.

DNAunion · 11-22-2002, 05:27 PM

DNAunion: What exactly is life? Which definition do you want?

Someone already posted one “definition” of life based on shared characteristics (reproduction, metabolism, etc.).

Someone else already posted a “definition” from John Maynard Smith dealing with a population that, because it has the traits of multiplication, variation, and heredity, can evolve by natural selection.

Origin of life researchers “define” life as a self-sustaining, self-replicating molecule or collection of molecules.

Just above, someone brought in entropy. Here’s a couple “definitions” of life that mention thermodynamics.

Quote:

"We might, in fact, define life as a continual struggle to maintain a myriad of cellular reactions in positions far from equilibrium because at equilibrium no net reactions are possible, no energy can be released, no work can be done, and the thermodynamically improbable order of the living state cannot be maintained." (Wayne M. Becker, Jane B. Reece, & Martin F. Poenie, The World of the Cell: Third Edition, Benjamin/Cummings Publishing Co., 1996, p133)

Quote:

“Peter Molton has defined life as ‘regions of order which use energy to maintain their organization against the disruptive force of entropy’.” (Charles B. Thaxton [Ph.D. in Chemistry], Walter L. Bradley [Ph.D. in Materials Science], Roger L. Olsen [BS in Chemistry, Ph.D. in Geochemistry], The Mystery of Life's Origin: Reassessing Current Theories, Lewis and Stanley, 1984, p127)

DNAunion · 11-22-2002, 05:32 PM

Quote:

shake: I'm currently reading Godel, Escher, Bach by Douglas R. Hofstadter, and he touches upon some of these ideas (among many others). The part I'm at right now is talking about the process of DNA and how new proteins and enzymes are constructed, RNA's role in the whole process, and a kind of a "which came first" between the ribosome or the protein (since ribosomes are made of proteins, but ribsomes also make proteins...).

DNAunion: Actually, it is only the RNA part of a ribosome that actually links the amino acids together during elongation (that is, the core of a ribosome is a ribozyme that possesses peptidyl transferase activity). This helps to remove one part of the chicken-or-egg paradox.

Frivolous · 11-22-2002, 08:24 PM

The existence of life is a miracle in itself and cannot be easily understood without acceptance of God's word through His Book..

Chip · 11-22-2002, 08:54 PM

LOL

Frivolous · 11-22-2002, 09:07 PM

You're welcome. Plenty more where that came from.

crocodile deathroll · 11-22-2002, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frivolous:
The existence of life is a miracle in itself and cannot be easily understood without acceptance of God's word through His Book..

One reason why I prefer Stephen Hawking's Brief History of Time to the Bible, because at least it it easier to understand.
If god's word was so important to us, then why is is so full of contradictions and so darn hard to understand?

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]

Defiant Heretic · 11-23-2002, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Posted by Godless Dave:
SirenSpeak I think you're confusing "organic" with "alive". Any molecule containing carbon is classified as organic.

Quote:

Posted by DNAunion:
Godless Dave, I think you're confusing "organic" with "carbon". Not all molecules containing carbon are classified as organic (take carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide or buckeyballs, for example).

An organic molecule is a covalently bonded carbon compound.

Quote:

Posted by Frivolous:
The existence of life is a miracle in itself and cannot be easily understood without acceptance of God's word through His Book..

Hail Thor.

Frivolous · 11-23-2002, 02:47 AM

It probably wasnt Thor. This is because the Bible gives the only accurate historical record of Creation, and there is not one mention of Thor in it.

Quote:

One reason why I prefer Stephen Hawking's Brief History of Time to the Bible, because at least it it easier to understand.
If god's word was so important to us, then why is is so full of contradictions and so darn hard to understand?

Unfortuneately the Bible is sometimes hard to understand, and why it was written in this way only God knows.

sakrilege · 11-23-2002, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by abe smith:
GOOD for you , Call Me Jay, 20 nov post=== "there;s no such thing as 'life', " et sequ. Anyone interested in the OP qy here can back-up one thread to a previous qy about "LIFE" and read my diatribe there....
Abe

Could you post a link please.

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11-22-2002, 10:01 AM	#21
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	Are you really concerned about 'life' or consciousness? Plants are alive, but are they counscious? I think not. The concepts of 'I', the self, etc. have been studied and struggled with for centuries. It's hard to say if we'll be able to ever figure that out. I'm currently reading Godel, Escher, Bach by Douglas R. Hofstadter, and he touches upon some of these ideas (among many others). The part I'm at right now is talking about the process of DNA and how new proteins and enzymes are constructed, RNA's role in the whole process, and a kind of a "which came first" between the ribosome or the protein (since ribosomes are made of proteins, but ribsomes also make proteins...). Anyway, if you're also into number theory, philosophy, the concept of mind vs. brain, etc., pick up a copy of GEB.

11-22-2002, 08:24 PM	#24
Frivolous Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 101	The existence of life is a miracle in itself and cannot be easily understood without acceptance of God's word through His Book..

11-22-2002, 08:54 PM	#25
Chip Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 382	LOL

11-22-2002, 09:07 PM	#26
Frivolous Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 101	You're welcome. Plenty more where that came from.

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