malookiemaloo

I totally agree that the fact that the disciples believed that jesus rose is no proof at all that he did. However, the theory that they lied is however not, in my view, sustainable. The followers of Jesus, on occassions, died for their belief. While people will die for a lie believing it to be true, I do not believe that anyone will die for a lie knowing it to be a lie.

That Jesus did not die on the cross but fainted (the swoon theory) is simply not credible. The Romans-experts at crucifixion-always made sure you were dead!!

As to Jesus never existing. Well. All I can say is that I have surfed the atheist websites extensively and find little support for that view.


Alistair

Vorkosigan

First of all, the evidence that any of the early followers of Jesus were martyred for the faith is thin in the extreme, composed largely of later traditions.

Second, while they may have been killed, they may well have been executed for political or social reasons related to, but not caused by, Christianity. For example, why did James die? Because he was a Christian? Or for opposition to the High Priest's policies of accommodation with the Romans?

Third, they may have been sent unwilling to their deaths:

• Christian: "B-B-But I've recanted! It's all a lie! I don't believe in Jesus! I worship Jupiter! I was just in it to get laid by the babes who follow Peter around!"
  Centurion: "Yeah, right buddy. We get six of you a day. Good-bye!" <thwack! thud!>

In which case the truth of the belief is not really relevant. For example, look at the way Joseph Smith died. His being a Mormon played a major role in the events that lead up to his death but he was killed by a mob for being an asshole, not for being a Mormon. No doubt at least a few of the early Christian leaders who died were killed for complex reasons like that. And like the early Church, the Mormon Church gave it an apologetic spin, saying he was martyred and sacrificed (when in fact he went out in a gunfight).

Fourth, undoubtedly some of the early apostles lied when they said they saw Jesus, since the visions apparently led to conflicts within the early Church, and because, well, my personal experience of such matters is not encouraging. Paul more or less records that the various leaders of the nascent cult derived their legitimacy as leaders from visions of Jesus. Power in social in-groups is a powerful incentive to lie and cheat, especially when there is absolutely no way to verify truth. You might not believe that the early leaders of the cult were human beings like everyone else, but I do.

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan

That Jesus did not die on the cross but fainted (the swoon theory) is simply not credible. The Romans-experts at crucifixion-always made sure you were dead!!
Alistair [/QUOTE]

Yet, antiquity records cases of people surviving crucifixion, especially if taken down in time. See Josephus, for example.

Vorkosigan

malookiemaloo

Yet, antiquity records cases of people surviving crucifixion, especially if taken down in time. See Josephus, for example.

Vorkosigan [/QUOTE]

I can trump that!!

It is a not unknown gangland punishment in the UK to crucify a rival, with the victim surviving. I suppose it all depends on taking the person down in time.

However the Romans were so good at it that if they were in benevolent mood you died quickly. If they had taken a particular dislike to you it could be spun out for days.

However, in Jesus case, he had been scourged (under which some people died and never made the cross) the thieves on either side were killed but Jesus was 'already dead' and a spear was thrust into his side.

To walk about under three days later perfectly healthy stretches things a bit in my view.


Alistair

Gregg

First, malookie, please do not be so naive. People believe all sorts of things that they would realize are complete bull if they ever bothered to really check them out. Astrology. Palm reading. That aliens are kidnapping people and using them for bizarre crossbreeding experiments. That humans never landed on the Moon. The list is endless. There are people who insist Elvis is alive, even though we know his body is in its tomb at Graceland. (Ah, but that's just a wax dummy or a lookalike.)

So, you want to know what really happened--the short, short version? OK.

1. ca. 1st c. BCE, Greek neo-Platonist philosophers postulate multi-layered universe (usually with 7 levels). The One God dwells in timeless perfection in the highest level, having no contact with the world of matter. At the lowest, sublunar level of heaven, things are more "Earth-like," and this realm is ruled by demonic spirits, who can interact with the world of matter and harass and torment humankind.

2. It is further postulated by the Greek philosophers that there is a Logos (Word) an emanation of God, through which God created the world, and through which God communicates with humankind.

3. Connections are made between the "Logos" and Jewish "Wisdom," "spirit," and even the "Son of Man" from the book of Daniel.

4. In the cosmopolitan, religiously tolerant world that is the Roman Empire, religions flourish and abound. Officially, Rome practices the Olympian faith, but actually, the "mystery cults" of Osiris, Attis, Adonis, and others are more popular. In all of these cults, it is believed that the god died and rose again, either in the primordial past or in a spiritual dimension, and that believers are "saved" through this sacrificial/redemptive act. Some of the cults are in the practice of eating a sacred meal.

5. Judaism is also popular in the Empire, and apocalyptic expectations, based mainly on the book of Daniel, are quite high. Many Jews, and Gentile converts to Judaism, are in the habit of searching the Jewish scriptures for clues to the coming "end of the age" and the nature of the Messiah.

6. A person (or persons), most likely Jewish but steeped in the religious currents of the time (Greek neo-Platonist cosmology, Logos/Wisdom/Son of Man/Suffering Sevant (Isaiah)/Messiah, and the mystery cults), while searching the Jewish scriptures, has a "revelation." He comes to believe that God is speaking to him through the Scriptures, revealing the existence of the Son. He further comes to believe that the Son, at some indeterminate time, performed a sacrificial act for the salvation of humanity, and that at the end of the age, the Son will come in glory to gather up his elect (those who believe in him) and rule forever.

7. The Son's sacrificial act, this person believes, took place in the sublunar realm, between the Earth and the Moon. Following the will of God, the Son "emptied himself," took on human form and likeness, and descended to the lowest level of heaven, where he was hung on a tree by the demon rulers of that dimension, who did not know who he was. Then, of course, he "rose again" and in so doing broke the power of the demonic spirits.

8. Belief in the Son, who at some point gets the name Jesus Christ (Annointed Savior) begins to spread among people who are already well-prepared to believe such things.

9. At some point a connection is made between "hanging on a tree" and "hanging on a cross." Some believers in the dying/rising Son begin to envision him being crucified in the Roman fashion.

(Note--the order of these events is probably not entirely accurate. For example, worship of the Son as one who saved by imparting spiritual knowledge and wisdom probably began before the belief arose that he had been crucified and resurrected. The evidence for this is that Paul and other Christian writers allude to people who believed in Christ but denied that Jesus had "come in the flesh" or had been crucified and resurrected (a strange state of affairs indeed if Christianity had begun with the testimony of witnesses to the ministry of a historical Jesus).

10. Several decades after Christianity began, a fellow we know only as "Mark" decides to write an allegorical tale about his dying/rising savior. Why? Because he knows what people have known for millennia--that stories are an excellent vehicle for inspiring people, for teaching, for imparting ideas, beliefs, values, timeless principles, etc. As a Jew, the stories of the Pentateuch are the foundation of his identity. But of course, he's no longer a "Jew," and his community exists outside of mainstream Judaism.

11. So "Mark" decides to take most of the motifs of his story directly from the Jewish scriptures. He wants to show how faith in Christ is superior to the old legalistic covenant. For various reasons, he decides to set the tale in the recent past and even use some actual figures from that time period, although he doesn't aim for complete historical accuracy.

12. "Mark's" allegorical tale becomes popular within his community. It proves extremely versatile--it can be used to provide liturgical readings, to instruct new converts, to teach the young, to strengthen inspire mature believers in the face of persecution, and so on.

13. "Mark's" allegory gets copied and passed around to other churches in the same geographical area (possibly Asia Minor). Others like his idea but don't quite agree with all the particulars of his view of the faith, or their communities' needs are somewhat different, or a combination of these, so they do considerable amounts of editing to the basic story and bring in new material from other sources.

14. A fellow we know as "John" gets ahold of one of these new "gospels" and while using the basic outline, reworks it in a major way to reflect his very different theological views, so much so that "John" is later seen as distinct from the three so-called "synoptic" gospels.

15. With the Roman-Jewish wars and the de-population of Palestine, Christianity's connections with Judaism grow tenuous. It becomes a predominately Gentile faith. It spreads among people who do not have a Jewish or neo-Platonist aversion to the idea of God becoming a human being or vice-versa.

16. By the 2nd century, there are some who do not realize that the gospels are allegories, and are beginning to think of them as chronicles of actual, historical events. Many others still hold to more traditional views, but in a short time, they are in the minority. Bringing its mythic savior god "down to Earth" inadvertently proves to be a stroke of genius for Christianity. It explodes in popularity, overwhelming the mystery cults.

17. Now, Christians by and large believe that Jesus Christ actually came to Earth, lived a human life, was crucified, and rose from the dead. Since it's several decades after the alleged event, all the participants are dead, and Palestine is devastated and depopulated, there's no way to verify the story, even if anyone had any real interest in doing so.

Well, Malookie, that's the "short, short" explanation for why people believed the "rumour" that Jesus had risen. If you want more details, you can check out www.jesuspuzzle.org.

Cheers!

Hawkingfan

About the disciples lying--I meant that they could have lied about being brave right after the Resurrection. I know that (supposedly) many of them died for truly believing (Peter was crucified upside-down,eh?)
I think the "swoon" theory is just as credible (if not more) than the Resurrection theory. Your reply to me is based on logic (i.e. it is logical to believe Christ was dead because Romans made sure of it) yet, instead of looking for a more logical answer to why the tomb was empty, you conclude (logically?) that Christ rose from the dead. Others have pointed out that there are many possible reasons for an empty tomb--not just swooning or the Resurrection.
As far as the historical accuracy of Jesus, Gregg answered it quite admirably, and as was already mentioned, read this www.jesuspuzzle.com
and learn why Jesus never existed. (If you want to continue discussing that aspect, we can start a new thread...it's been done here a million times).

malookiemaloo

Now now don't knock niavity-it's one of my most endearing qualities.

I shall need some time to study what you have said.

However there does seem to be a presumption that because many religions are false and people believe silly things ie Elvis is alive etc that ipso facto EACH and EVERY religion is wrong and therefore God does not exist. That view is well within a sceptic's comfort zone but I am sure you are aware that the distinguising feature of Christianity is God coming to man as opposed to man srtiving in his own strength to find God.

bye for now,


Alistair

worldling

Alistair writes:
Um, because they wanted to believe? After all, that's why you believe it, isn't it? And you never witnessed it.

QED

Hawkingfan

From thejesuspuzzle:
"The Christian "Son" is also an expression of the overriding religious concept of the Hellenistic age, that the ultimate God is transcendent and can have no direct contact with the world of matter. He must reveal himself and deal with humanity through an intermediary force, such as the "Logos" of Platonic (Greek) philosophy or the figure of "personified Wisdom" of Jewish thinking; the latter is found in documents like Proverbs, Baruch and the Wisdom of Solomon. This force was viewed as an emanation of God, his outward image, an agency which had helped create and sustain the universe and now served as a channel of knowledge and communion between God and the world. All these features are part of the language used by early Christian writers about their spiritual "Christ Jesus", a heavenly figure who was a Jewish sectarian version of these prevailing myths and thought patterns."

Clutch

There is vast doubt about this. Have you actually been reading the responses people have written on this thread? Vorkosigan alone has utterly demolished this claim.

Along with this one, for that matter:Why on earth would you think there's evidence that any disciple died specifically for believing and refusing to renounce that Jesus was physically resurrected from the dead? Feel free to quote scripture, supported by extra-biblical sources of first-hand provenance if possible.Well, given that I called your argument "a dismal case of special pleading", I don't see why you would think this. There is as strong a presumption that Jesus rose from the dead as there is that Mohammed ascended physically to heaven. And so forth...