Philosoft

Sorry Messiah, I'm going to call your bluff here. Let's start with this. How does one act when one holds the position that one does not know if the universe has a purpose? What specific behaviors indicate this "lack of belief" in lieu of the "belief" that the universe has no purpose?


added: ReasonableDoubt has asked much the same thing. You needn't reply to me if you are already in the midst of a reply to RD.

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]</p>

The Messiah

Excellent, we are down to what we do instead. Doesn't it strike you that directly attacking theists beliefs at their core is probably the least likely way to convert them. What alternative does the atheist offer. If you look at the previous posts becoming an atheist is essentially about stating catagorically that the universe has NO purpose. Personally I don't think this is a particularly pleasent way to look at mine or anyone else's life. What's more since we cannot say this with any certainty, why say it at all? If I walked up to anyone and told them that they, their families and everything they do and say is ultimately pointless, regardless of how one feels about the validity of the satatement, one is likely to make that person feel bad. This really is the main strength of religions, they offer their followers something to feel good about, even if it is being a self-righteous gob-shite.

Generally, I disagree with the vast majority of the trappings of religion because they are just too silly but it nevertheless addresses the fundamental philosophical concerns of it followers. What's more it dresses the explanations up in mystery and charm to great effect. In the light of this how are theists and atheists likely to find a common ground if there founding principles are diametrically opposed, and what's more neither party has absolute proof of its position. Furthermore, is the truth enough for someone to dismiss the mysteries of a God when the emotional and communal rewards are so great? Well the answer is yes but it is painfully slow and the vast majority of the planet is still occupied and run by religious fruit cakes.

I think what I'm saying is that the religions managed to get a grip on these people minds by manipulation of people's basic needs and desires and I don't think atheism has the tools to survive in the gene (meme?) pool of ideologies because it does not exploit this means of proliferation. I think agnosticism can exploit this but it will need to become a more sophisticated creature. So what do we do instead, well we can begin with a debate on what religion offers and asking whether agnosticism can also provide it or if not what else can it offer. Can religion be surplanted by something more egalitarian and, more to the point, something that will actually be beneficial.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: The Messiah ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule

Not "we", "you" ...