Vorkosigan

Wrong again. One can be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist. To be an atheist, one must not believe in gods. Many agnostics do not believe in gods, regardless of their different take on the evidentiary aspects of the matter.

Asha'man

Hmm, I consider myself to be an Atheist/Agnostic.

As an atheist, I don't believe a god exists, since I haven't seen any good evidence that he does.

As an agnostic, I think that if a god did exist, and if he wanted us to have free will, he would never provide convincing proof of his existance. If he ever provided such proof, we would have no choice but to believe in him. Therefore, such a god will always be unprovable.

There is no way to distinguish between no god and a god that won't let himself be seen.

RyanS2

Let me reiterate again:

If someone asks me, "Do you believe in God?" The answer is, "No". Now then, we already know that you can't prove things from a negative. Just because there is no convincing evidence of "God(ess)" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So, that makes me agnostic, because I CAN acknowledge that because there is no proof of God doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

"An atheist and a satanist is an impossible mix."

If you do not know what a Satanist believes, why do you comment on it? No Satanic literature, (except Dr. Acquino, but he calls his religion "Setianism", in worship of "Set", so it is a different religion), recognizes a God, or advocates the worship of God. The most recognized piece of Satanic literature in the market is the "Satanic Bible", which clearly states:

"All Gods are men that have externally projected themselves onto another being."

Or, as one person put it: "I beware those who tell me what God wants, because it so often coincides with what they want".

Likewise, Crowley didn't believe in a literal God or Devil either. He wrote, "The devil is just an invention of the Great Black Brotherhood". (The Great Black Brotherhood is somewhat the equivalent of stomach cancer in terms of society. Any religion falling under the "Great Black Brotherhood" is the equivalent of social cancer, according to Crowley.) A reporter observing Crowley noted, "The only thing Crowley worships is himself".

I don't know though, then again. Satanism and Thelema, (the religion that Crowley actually founded), say that man is God. Only to him/herself however. Any atheists know if the belief that I am the most important thing to myself is considered antithesis to atheistic beliefs?

Kosh

Most people would define a "Satanist" as one who
worships the Satan of the Hebrew/Christian bible.
I think this is an appropriate definition, since
it's how a majority of people would define it.

I submit that you are a nomenclature problem with
your particular beliefs... perhaps you should just
call yourself something that doesn't indicate
belief in a non-existent being?

RyanS2

"Most people would define a "Satanist" as one who
worships the Satan of the Hebrew/Christian bible.
I think this is an appropriate definition, since
it's how a majority of people would define it."

Very interesting. Now, if there are groups of Satan worshippers out there, they surely would have written a book about it. It's a fairly safe assumption. Now, the two current recognized authors of Satanic literature are Dr. Michael Acquino, and Anton Lavey. Some also consider Aleister Crowley a Satanist, but he was actually a Thelemic, (Greek for "Will"). To my knowledge now, no such book exists, nor ever has. (Unless we count Leo Taxil's book, but he was arrested for fraud because he used a story about a girl being kidnapped for sacrifice as a way to milk money out of the Church.)

So, the sources say:

Religioustolerance.org

"Gothic Satanism: It is an imaginary, profoundly evil religion that was invented during the late Middle Ages by the Christian church. These Satanists were said to ritually kill children, sell their soul to the devil, break crucifixes, conduct black masses, etc. Gothic Satanism has never existed in the past as an organization, and does not exist today, except in the imagination of the public, and in horror movies.

Gothic Satanism should not be confused with the Goth sub-culture. The latter is a philosophical, musical, cultural group that is unrelated to Satanism."

Likewise, the CSER, (Committee for Scientific Examination of Religion), couldn't find that group either. Nor could the FBI, as Kenneth V. Lanning reported in 1992, after an investigation from 1983. (You can find it in "Investigator's Guide to Allegations of 'Ritual' Child Abuse.")

Bottom line? As Dr. Acquino put it: "It is not the right of other religions to define others beliefs". The early Christian Catholic Church labeled Buddhism to be devil worship, as did the Muslims labeling the Yezidi, as did a whole slew of religions. If we base this assumption as well, atheism was seen as the work of the Devil, and the Chinese believed that Christians ate babies. Unless I am currently incorrect, there are no authors on Satanic literature other than the ones I listed above. So, to prove that there are these "majorities" of Satanists who believe in a literal devil and worship it, you'd have to show me where they are. I've never met them, though, like aliens, they could be out there... somewhere....

CX

Let me reiterate. You are wrong. You clearly don't know what those two words mean. An atheist is someone with a lack of belief in god. This is not necessarily someone who positively affirms god's nonexistence. An agnostic is someone who believes the very question of god's existence or nonexistence is insoluable. One is neither entailed nor precluded by the other.

And I'm still waiting for our debate about GJn being first and all that other rot you were talking about, but never responded to prior to saying you were leaving II, which you apparently have not.

offa

Offa;
I beg your pardon, we are talking in an ideal language? (I hope). An
Atheist does not believe in God. An Agnostic ain't so sure. An atheist
is not interested in want-to-be's. Either you are an atheist or you
are not an atheist. Period. An Agnostic remains an agnostic until
he/she can be sure that God does not exist. Period. I am an atheist.
I know God does not exist. Period.


Asha'man
Hmm, I consider myself to be an Atheist/Agnostic.
As an atheist, I don't believe a god exists, since I
haven't seen any good evidence that he does.

Offa;
Well chose words, Asha'man, my agnostic friend. An atheist does not
believe an atheist knows, i.e., I know God does
not exist. Try forming those words in your mouth and say them (I know
God does not exist), if
you can say them with conviction then you are an atheist, if, by
chance, you have doubt, then you are not atheist. Period.




RyanS2
Bottom line? As Dr. Acquino put it: "It is not the right of
other religions to define others beliefs". The early Christian
Catholic Church labeled Buddhism to be devil worship, as did
the Muslims labeling the Yezidi, as did a whole slew of
religions. If we base this assumption as well, atheism was
seen as the work of the Devil, and the Chinese believed that
Christians ate babies. Unless I am currently incorrect, there
are no authors on Satanic literature other than the ones I
listed above. So, to prove that there are these "majorities"
of Satanists who believe in a literal devil and worship it,
you'd have to show me where they are. I've never met them,
though, like aliens, they could be out there... somewhere....


Offa;
First of all atheists have no religion. Atheists do not "sacrifice"
nor do we worship idols (crucifixes) and we have no "Devil"
working in the background. We have no songs and chants and we
do not run around fires naked and all that stuff. Now, the only
place I can find Satan is in the Judeo-Christian religion. You
cannot re-invent the wheel. Satan belongs to religion and has nothing
to do with atheists. Atheism is not a religion. Accordingly your
quote, "It is not the right of
other religions to define others beliefs". disqualifies atheists
because we are not a religion."

CowboyX
Let me reiterate. You are wrong. You clearly don't know
what those two words mean. An atheist is someone with a lack
of belief in god. This is not necessarily someone who
positively affirms god's nonexistence. An agnostic is someone
who believes the very question of god's existence or
nonexistence is insoluble. One is neither entailed nor
precluded by the other.

Offa;
Cowboy, My fundie friend, why don't you find me countless scholars
who exactly agree with what you just wrote.

O.K., according to your definition, I am not an atheist, then what
the hell am I. I know of God's non-existent. I do not lack belief
in God, I know he does not exist. I positively affirm God's non
existence. What am I? I am not that atheist you just defined.


CowboyX
And I'm still waiting for our debate about GJn being first
and all that other rot you were talking about, but never
responded to prior to saying you were leaving II, which you
apparently have not.


Offa;
I am going to respond. But I am going to respond under a different
format. It is obvious that you do not read "prior" prior posts and
respond only to prior posts. I explain my points then you want me to
re-explain (an old fundie trick). If you have not the courtesy
to read what I have already written do not waste my time and have
me reiterate.


BTW, I wrote I'd be back, did you read that? Also, I have to travel
to New Orleans for a convention and will be gone for 9/10 days. I
want to work on my web-page, <a href="http://www.pesher.com" target="_blank">www.pesher.com</a> I am reading a book
by a Jew named Robert Eisenman and I feel that he writes like a
Jew (very narrow stream of mind, stingy) and I want to confront him. Also
I want to write a reply to Spider about my remark "All Angels are
Pharisees". I may have to apologize to Nomad because I may have
drawn a wrong conclusion about "exactly" what he wrote. See;
"Internet Infidels Discussion Forum: Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene?" or use "Search" for bethulah"


The Bottom-Line is, I should be packing. This convention means I have to attend two-classes a day M thru F and one on Sat. and it is about concrete ... can you imagine? I thought a convention was a party with booze and babes!, obviously I am a few cards short of a full deck.

Thanks, Offa

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: offa ]</p>

Marduk

Let’s try and uncomplicate this (futile as it may be) just because the word Satan appears in the title doesn’t mean that Satan is either believed in or worshipped, Early Roman Christians called everyone who didn’t tow the Church line Satan worshippers whether they were Gnostic or Catherns or atheists or whatever. In their way of thinking anyone who didn’t believe, as they were followers of the Devil. Why modern day ‘Satanists’ keep the name, I don’t know, perhaps as a joke, a badge of honor for opposing the Church, or to piss off fundy’s. I suppose somewhere in teenage wasteland there are some who really worship the Devil just as there are those who think they really are themselves Vampires, Blame Buffy and Alice Manson.
As far as running around partying naked, I suppose many neo Pagans do this, drugs do the darndest things.
Too bad Modern Primitive no longer posts, I think she was a neo Pagan, and I believe it’s all in fun.


[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]</p>

Kosh

I never claimed there were "majorities of Satanists". I claimed the a majority of
people would define "Satanists" as...[yada yada
yada]. A majority of people would define
"UFO" as Unidentified Flying Object (although
I often use it as Undistinguishable Furry Object
to refer to roadkill), but that doesn't mean
they exist.

See the difference?

Kosh

A logical fallacy.

(what do I win?)