Radcliffe Emerson

I'm reading it now, and I too find the arguments extremely convincing. The explanations also make logical sense.
And to me, Finkelstein doesn't completely discount everything.
For example, I had read somewhere a claim that the Israelites, Canaanites, Philistines were all basically the same people and lived side by side peacefully.
Finkelstein indicates at one point early in the book that the Israelites were indeed outsiders in Canaan.

Radcliffe Emerson

My understanding is most archaelogists that dispute what they call miminalists like Finkelstein base it on evidence from the digs PRIOR to the last 20 years, and the most recent digs over the last 2 decades don't support the bible.
I read in a separate article that had nothing to do with Finkelstein that even orthodox Rabbis in Jerusalem now are starting to form the opinion that their history as recorded in the bible is mostly legends and myths.

Skeptical

I have not read either book, yet, I have been consumed lately by my study of the NT. I intend to do some research on the OT as well and will probably read both Devers and Finkelstein.

The question I have for you is why do you seem so confident that Devers is superior to Finklestein? They both seem to have very legitimate academic credentials, so on what basis are you making your judgement? Based on your comments it would seem that you don't think TBU has much value and I'm curious as to how you came to this conclusion.

ansarthemystic

Ignorant bastards indeed......but you are aware that a Jew can be a member of any religious group and ethnic group, and yes there are Atheist Jews. So saying that someone is a Jew doesn't say much. Saying that the archaeologists and other researchers are practicing Jews is saying it all!

peace and blessings

ansarthemystic

It would seem that ethnically the entire population of Asia(SOUTH ASIA,MIDDLE EAST,NORTHEAST AFRICA)consisted of populations of what the racial typologists would call African, Australoids,Indo-europeans and Mongoloids.These groups had intermarried for centuries(THE TRUEST MELTING POT THERE EVER WAS. The groups could only distinguish themselves by language as the story of the Tower of Babel indicates.

It would seem also that the Israelites, Caanaites, Philistines, and even the Arabians, Etiopians, and Egyptians were the same ethnically, but the Israelites spoke a different Semitic language that eventually developed into Hebrew after powerful Canaanite influence.

That the Israelites were outsiders was not b/c of ethnic identity but language and cultural differences.

But otherwise Finklestein's book is amazing!

peace and blessings

Radcliffe Emerson

I agree with you completely. The other really interesting find is (I don' think this is from the Finkelstein book) the ancient Egyptian legends they've found that pre-date the Judaic legends but strongly appear to be the main influences for the Judaic legends.

CX

Such as? I'd be especially interested to see references. I'm reading about Ancient Mesopotamia prior to the beginning of monotheistic Judaism and it's fascinating. Tying in ancient Egypt as well would be interesting indeed.

Amen-Moses

All I can think of offhand is lopping off the foreskin which was an Egyptian custom, the Amen-Aten link, and the similarities between Psalms and some Atenist writings.

Genesis does look like a combination of the Egyptian creation myth and that of Sumeria though so maybe that is the link?

Amen-Moses

PTET

Dever is a former protestant fundamentalist who converted to Judaism, and who now describes himself as an "informed agnostic" (apparently)...

Form what I can make out (as a total amateur;&gt he's the most respected, mainstream guy in Bible Archaeology.

Apparently he's a critic of Finkelstein et al, although he himself holds that much Old Testament history is "largely mythical, but in the proper sense of the term 'myth': perhaps 'historical fiction,' but tales told primarily to validate religious beliefs."

As the saying goes "What Separates a Minimalist from a Maximalist? Not Much" * ;>

See this <a href="http://www.fsmitha.com/review/r-dever.html" target="_blank">review</a> of his recent book...
<a href="http://www.fsmitha.com/review/r-dever.html" target="_blank">http://www.fsmitha.com/review/r-dever.html</a>

<a href="http://dreamwater.net/ptet" target="_blank">PTET</a>


* "Davies, Philip. "What Separates a Minimalist from a Maximalist? Not Much," Biblical Archaeological Review 26, no. 2 (March/April 2000), 24-27, 72-73.

Marduk

"All I can think of offhand is lopping off the foreskin which was an Egyptian custom, the Amen-Aten link, and the similarities between Psalms and some Atenist writings."

Names like Miriam and Moses and many other Levite names are Egyptian as well.
I've also read that Egyptians would annoint their kings with oil, crocodile fat, for which the Egyptian word was messa, sort of like Mesiah, the annointed one.


Interesting note about 'trimming the trouser snake' The Sumerians claim their male gods had no foreskin on their John Thomas's, maybe this is just an attempt to try and be like their gods.
Maybe the gods, who seemed to have a lot of trouble getting humans put together right, saw this foreskin oversight and said "oh bloody hell, if they don't like it they can always snip it off"

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]</p>