Freethought & Rationalism Archive

chekmate · 06-26-2002, 08:19 PM

Well, I guess it's time for me to drop my disguise.

[begin evil god complete with big booming voice]

I am God. The real one. If you send me $100, you will go to heaven. Otherwise, it's eternal fire and burning forever for you!

What? You have no reason to believe I am God? Well then, don't send me the money, and you can go to Hell! But what if, just what if, I really am God? Are you willing to take that chance? If I were you (my creation), I would send me the money... just to be sure. E-mail me to find out where. Or BURN

[end evil god complete with big booming voice]

I just think of it this way. I am already going to hell for 9,438 different religions, so why not make it 9,439? What's one more going to hurt? I probably wouldn't make it into heaven anyway... I sin too much.

General idea for this is courtasy of <a href="http://jhuger.com/pascal.mv" target="_blank">Reverend Jim.</a>

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: chekmate ]

Pensee · 06-26-2002, 08:30 PM

Plain & simple, if the muslims are right, you go to hell. If any other exclusivist religion consisting of a hell concept is right, you go to hell. There are thousands upon thousands of religions worldwide. Do you like your chances that the one you just happened to be raised to believe in is the right one?

Besides that, if god does exist and if he is a loving god, do you think he would send you to hell for using the brain that he gave you? For trying to find out why you believe what you believe? Jesus warned that there will be many false prophets who would deceive even the very elect and to, therefore, be extremely careful in who and what you believe. You're just following that advice. You're just trying to be certain that you are not being deceived. Would god punish you for obeying his son?

Think about this. Jesus says that humans, being evil, could never love their children nearly as much as god loves us. Would your parents, no matter how bad of a thing you did, hold your hand to a flame and let your flesh burn? Even if they put it there, over the fire, for just a second, wouldn't they see how much pain it caused you and because of their intense love for you (which supposedly is far less than god's love for you) take your hand away from the flame? I submit that a loving god could never let you burn forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...

Going back to the parental love analogy, people often claim that god punishes those he loves just as parents punish the child they love. No matter how much you disobeyed your parents, eventually the punishment will end. They will give you another chance to redeem yourself. You will not be grounded for life, (even though they may threaten your life

). And, I would imagine, your punishment would be much shorter if they knew it was an honest mistake. Why would it be any different with a loving god? Why wouldn't he give you a second chance? The purpose of punishment is to correct a behavior, not to just keep punishing someone for all of eternity.

Nevertheless, you may still ask, what if I'm wrong? Honestly, I am willing to take that chance. What evidence is there that hell exists? There isn't any. Imagine 1,000 years from now, people using children's Christmas books, movies, decorations, songs, recorded testimony from millions of kids, etc. from our era to "prove" that Santa exists. Just because someone wrote about Santa & kids fervently believe in Santa, doesn't mean that Santa is real. There isn't any scientific evidence for Santa's existence as there isn't any scientific evidence for hell's existence. What *proof* there is, is merely hearsay and not scientific in the loosest form of the word. I will continue on in my beliefs until I have reason to believe otherwise. Right now, the evidence simply is insufficient.

If hell's real, I'll believe it when I get there.

ManM · 06-27-2002, 04:30 AM

ax,
A belief based on fear or promise of reward is shaky at best. If you are inclined to believe in a good God, use your head about it. A good God would not roast people for eternity. In order to be consistent, you have to realize that hell must not exist from God's point of view. Even if God were to put us all in paradise and make us all omniscient, wouldn't there be unhappy people?

IvanK · 06-27-2002, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ax:
I was encouraged and frightened and scared and happy and confussed and depressed and interested all at the same time.

Get used to the feeling. If you choose to pursue your free inquiry it's going to become your boon companion, the terror of your nights and the wonder of your days. As you can see here there are many, many people who have gone through exactly what you are going through now and come out the other side to become mostly happy and content human individuals without god beliefs. Many of those, myself included, did it without much help. We'll be here for you if and when you need us.

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:
A good God would not roast people for eternity.

If that is so then either the Christian Bible is wrong or God is not good. Which is it?

MzNeko · 06-27-2002, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ax:
Its funny how its the anger of God thats keeping where I am, not the love.....

Sounds a bit similar to someone reluctant to leave an abusive spouse, doesn't it?

Hmmm... interesting parallel. Next, on the Ricki Lake Show, "Abusive Deities and the People who Love Them"

HelenM · 06-27-2002, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ax:
YES! YES! YES! I believe the same with the whole "god made my brain", I also rekon that if I'm predestined, surely he'll help me out with my quires!! The main thing on my mind is, what if your all wrong, I mean, what if after all this, you die and face God and he's like " well well well, you really stuffed things up, now didn't you." I dont want to face that!! Its funny how its the anger of God thats keeping where I am, not the love.....

Hi ax

I'd say, listen to your heart, follow your heart, keep asking questions, talking to people, reading things; read things by people from all different belief systems, including atheism of course and then see where you end up.

I mean, if you don't believe something you don't believe it. And if God is real He knows full well that you don't so what's the point in going to church just out of fear?

Anyway I hope you're finding that you're far from alone in having the doubts and questions you have. In fact if where you are heading towards is atheism I'm sure you'll find lots of people here who've been the same way as you. If you are headed towards some sort of more liberal Christianity - say - then, there aren't many liberal Christians on this site but, you can read their books and you can find them, I'm sure, online and offline.

And if you find a reason to go back to conservative Christianity, well, I guess you already know where to find conservative Christians. But I don't think you'd be posting here had they been able to answer all your questions and restore your confidence in the faith you were raised in. So - I suppose you'd have to find some other ones, with better answers, or who treated you better when you asked, for there to be much likelihood of you returning to your former beliefs.

Keep posting if it helps...

love
Helen

p.s. when I wrote 'heart' I was assuming ax knew what I meant.

queue · 06-27-2002, 09:54 AM

ax,

The christianity that I was raised with said that there was a god and a devil and that the devil was the "Prince of Lies." It also said that all of the other religions, except for the Jewish religion, were started by the devil (which was used to explain why they did not understand that it was not the correct belief). At that time I wondered why this devil could start the other religions and not the Jewish or christian religions as well.

I started looking at different religions and found found that I could not determine if there was a god that did actually exist. I did conclude, to my own satisfaction, that the christian god that I was raised to believe in could not be correct (the contradictions in the bible, the horrors of the OT, the slavery in the OT and NT [this god did not know this was wrong?], the treatment of women [again this god did not know this was wrong?]) and that the other religions had the same problems. I decided that I would be, what I consider, a good person to myself and others. If there does turn out to be a god, which IMO is very unlikely, being a good person is what is going to matter anyway.

Side note: At one point I was leaning toward Wicca. I liked the concept of doing magic, but I knew it did not actually exist.

Eventually, you will just have to decide for yourself what you want to believe (or not believe) and why.

Good luck.

[I swear there is a trap door in my brain and concepts that I come up with scramble to get out and after I have written down what I wanted to say, they come back in the trap door and taunt me until I edit what I wrote.]

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: queue ]

ManM · 06-27-2002, 12:20 PM

IvanK,
I think we have been over this before, haven't we? I would amend your statement to read: "Either a literal interpretation of the bible is wrong or God is not good." Then I would simply agree that a literal interpretation of the bible is wrong. Keep in mind that Jesus taught using parables and metaphors.

Mad Kally · 06-27-2002, 12:32 PM

Quote:

posted by ManM:
Keep in mind that Jesus taught using parables and metaphors.

Oh, now the whole thing makes sense!

Joel · 06-27-2002, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear. -- Thomas Jefferson

06-26-2002, 08:19 PM	#11
chekmate Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Downriver Detroit Posts: 1,961	Well, I guess it's time for me to drop my disguise. [begin evil god complete with big booming voice] I am God. The real one. If you send me $100, you will go to heaven. Otherwise, it's eternal fire and burning forever for you! What? You have no reason to believe I am God? Well then, don't send me the money, and you can go to Hell! But what if, just what if, I really am God? Are you willing to take that chance? If I were you (my creation), I would send me the money... just to be sure. E-mail me to find out where. Or BURN [end evil god complete with big booming voice] I just think of it this way. I am already going to hell for 9,438 different religions, so why not make it 9,439? What's one more going to hurt? I probably wouldn't make it into heaven anyway... I sin too much. General idea for this is courtasy of <a href="http://jhuger.com/pascal.mv" target="_blank">Reverend Jim.</a> [ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: chekmate ]</p>

06-27-2002, 09:54 AM	#17
queue Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 368	ax, The christianity that I was raised with said that there was a god and a devil and that the devil was the "Prince of Lies." It also said that all of the other religions, except for the Jewish religion, were started by the devil (which was used to explain why they did not understand that it was not the correct belief). At that time I wondered why this devil could start the other religions and not the Jewish or christian religions as well. I started looking at different religions and found found that I could not determine if there was a god that did actually exist. I did conclude, to my own satisfaction, that the christian god that I was raised to believe in could not be correct (the contradictions in the bible, the horrors of the OT, the slavery in the OT and NT [this god did not know this was wrong?], the treatment of women [again this god did not know this was wrong?]) and that the other religions had the same problems. I decided that I would be, what I consider, a good person to myself and others. If there does turn out to be a god, which IMO is very unlikely, being a good person is what is going to matter anyway. Side note: At one point I was leaning toward Wicca. I liked the concept of doing magic, but I knew it did not actually exist. Eventually, you will just have to decide for yourself what you want to believe (or not believe) and why. Good luck. [I swear there is a trap door in my brain and concepts that I come up with scramble to get out and after I have written down what I wanted to say, they come back in the trap door and taunt me until I edit what I wrote.] [ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: queue ]</p>

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06-26-2002, 08:30 PM	#12
Pensee Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: florida Posts: 657	Plain & simple, if the muslims are right, you go to hell. If any other exclusivist religion consisting of a hell concept is right, you go to hell. There are thousands upon thousands of religions worldwide. Do you like your chances that the one you just happened to be raised to believe in is the right one? Besides that, if god does exist and if he is a loving god, do you think he would send you to hell for using the brain that he gave you? For trying to find out why you believe what you believe? Jesus warned that there will be many false prophets who would deceive even the very elect and to, therefore, be extremely careful in who and what you believe. You're just following that advice. You're just trying to be certain that you are not being deceived. Would god punish you for obeying his son? Think about this. Jesus says that humans, being evil, could never love their children nearly as much as god loves us. Would your parents, no matter how bad of a thing you did, hold your hand to a flame and let your flesh burn? Even if they put it there, over the fire, for just a second, wouldn't they see how much pain it caused you and because of their intense love for you (which supposedly is far less than god's love for you) take your hand away from the flame? I submit that a loving god could never let you burn forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever... Going back to the parental love analogy, people often claim that god punishes those he loves just as parents punish the child they love. No matter how much you disobeyed your parents, eventually the punishment will end. They will give you another chance to redeem yourself. You will not be grounded for life, (even though they may threaten your life ). And, I would imagine, your punishment would be much shorter if they knew it was an honest mistake. Why would it be any different with a loving god? Why wouldn't he give you a second chance? The purpose of punishment is to correct a behavior, not to just keep punishing someone for all of eternity. Nevertheless, you may still ask, what if I'm wrong? Honestly, I am willing to take that chance. What evidence is there that hell exists? There isn't any. Imagine 1,000 years from now, people using children's Christmas books, movies, decorations, songs, recorded testimony from millions of kids, etc. from our era to "prove" that Santa exists. Just because someone wrote about Santa & kids fervently believe in Santa, doesn't mean that Santa is real. There isn't any scientific evidence for Santa's existence as there isn't any scientific evidence for hell's existence. What proof there is, is merely hearsay and not scientific in the loosest form of the word. I will continue on in my beliefs until I have reason to believe otherwise. Right now, the evidence simply is insufficient. If hell's real, I'll believe it when I get there.

06-27-2002, 04:30 AM	#13
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	ax, A belief based on fear or promise of reward is shaky at best. If you are inclined to believe in a good God, use your head about it. A good God would not roast people for eternity. In order to be consistent, you have to realize that hell must not exist from God's point of view. Even if God were to put us all in paradise and make us all omniscient, wouldn't there be unhappy people?

06-27-2002, 12:20 PM	#18
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	IvanK, I think we have been over this before, haven't we? I would amend your statement to read: "Either a literal interpretation of the bible is wrong or God is not good." Then I would simply agree that a literal interpretation of the bible is wrong. Keep in mind that Jesus taught using parables and metaphors.

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