Marduk

"For thousands of years, religion has caused wars, terrorism, genocide, and other horrible atrocities"

Oh come on, I don't see religion having anything to do with WW I, WW II, the War of 1812, the Civil War, the Spanish American War, Nazis, Stalin, the killing fields of Cambodia, Korea or Vietnam.
Humans will find reasons to kill and oppress each other whether people are religious or not.

Kassiana

Kass:
Sure, why not? I believe in Santa Claus myself. Though I don't believe in Santa Clause...I've never much liked the idea of Tim Allen using the Santa myth in such a selfish fashion.

I don't think one allegedly "unhealthy" belief in an otherwise rational and compassionate person hurts anyone. I have friends who believe war in Iraq makes sense, a much more unhealthy belief in the immediate people-dying sense than any liberal religious belief like mine, yet I don't think it makes them insane. (Wrong, yes, but not insane. )

SecularFuture

Tercel
No, it is not. My logic is that “theism is irrational and has no place in the real world.” If it’s not logical for an adult to hold to a belief in Santa Clause, why should it be considered logical for an adult to hold to a belief in a supernatural superman with magical powers?

See above.

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wildernesse
My main problem is with *magical -- unrealistic -- thinking*.

Let me rephrase:
Secularism is the most logical replacement for theism.

So… you’re trying to tell me that believing in a supernatural supergod is more productive than believing in the power of the human mind? Why waste any time believing in something that probably doesn’t exist, when you could use that time to help find realistic solutions to our world’s problems?

Yeah – that sentence did sound a little crazy. My work is really stressing me out. BUT- I still hold to the belief that theism is irrational and nonproductive.

I’m looking for, and hoping for, immediate progress. There are too many people dying from too many diseases, and there are not enough people searching for naturalistic solutions to our many problems. Too many place belief in god before belief in human ingenuity. I believe, and I may be wrong, that if we get rid of the human need for theism, we would have a greater sense for humanism.

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TomboyMom
My point, exactly!

Not forcefully, but passively, through dialogue and questions. Challenge the theists, but never attack them.

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Jamie_L & ocean
Very good points.

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Ojuice5001
If the theist cannot give realistic proof for their belief in the supernatural, their belief cannot be considered rational. If you make a claim about something, it is up to you to support the claim, and not up to the person who is denying the claim.

There is no reason or evidence to believe in the supernatural, so why do people believe? Because of an ancient -- religious -- faith, a hope for something that is most likely not true; a belief supported by nothing, devoid of logic, devoid of reason, and devoid of evidence.

The Nazis! And, simply because many people believe in the same thing, does not make it true by default. Why do so many people believe in god? Because belief in a god is easier, and more comforting, than not believing in a god. So, many choose to believe in a god, even when there is no evidence, or reason, for one.

Exactly! And what’s the problem with that?

Why?

Why?

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Kassiana
Have you ever noticed how crazy, and emotional, some people look during a church sermon?
:notworthy

Kassiana

And during political rallies? And while ranting about how evil Saddam Hussein is? Sure. Some people look crazy and emotional while simply living life, too. So what?

Looking crazy and emotional proves nothing other than that you look crazy and emotional. It certainly doesn't show that no one should hold theistic beliefs because some theists LOOK a certain way any more than atheist looks should invalidate atheism.

Amos

The problem here is that in the real world man is not a rational animal. Only in our human condition is man rational and this is the message theism is trying to get across. Its purpose here is to reduce irrational behavior that will be harmful to mankind as a whole. Your idea of theism as a belief in "a supernatural superman with magical powers" is evidence of such irrational thoughts and are an abomination to the intelligence of theism. Such error should have no rights in a Democratic society where the sanctity of life should be protected from the destructive consequences of human error.

Tercel

As usual a strawman.
The existence of God is simply a question of whether ultimate reality is purposeful or not: Not whether some magical fairy-like bearded old-man siting on a cloud with super-duper powers exists. And when the correct question is asked, the answer is far from a cut and dried "not".

SecularFuture

Kassiana,
If you had a company, who would you rather hire?

(A) A person with very little mental stability?
(B) A person who was mentally stable?

To the big picture, this issue is very significant.

Magical thinking is not realistic thinking.

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Amos
Only because he chooses not to be.

Theism, as a whole, is a human error. When we couldn’t give sufficient, and naturalistic, answers to our questions about the universe, we created gods to give those answers.

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Tercel
Do you believe in a god? If so, why?

Fiach

Amos, you are not suggesting that only homosexuals get higher educations are you? I know poofters in professions, pro-sports, hospital orderlies, janitors. So maybe more of them go on in school especially in arts and theatrical arts. But they are conspicously absent among neuroscientists, and I attend yearly meets and get to meet many of the attendies. All I have met are married with children.

It is a real threat that those of us with Ph.D., MD, MbChb degrees could be in danger of underbreading our selves out of existence in a mass of stupid, prolific fundies. Yikes, what are we to do?

Fiach

Amos

You are confusing rational with non-rational. What you think is rational somebody else might call irrational. It is always the faculty of reason that is the cause of human suffering and there is no suffering outside of our human condition.

Theism has nothing to do with the universe and if you think that you are in error. Please tell me why you think theism has something to do with the universe outside of human error. If you are thinking of Gen.1:1 show me where it says that God created the universe. You may disagree with your own idea of theism but that would be your problem.

Remember that not too long ago you were searching for identity and in utter desperation ended up in atheism. If nothing else, you should allow others to do the same.

Amos

Not at all. In my view homosexuals are victims of society and not part of any particular group . . . but could be more inclined towards certain fields of study. You are probably right there.

I have a suspicion based on a reasonable argument that more girls are born to people in the medical profession. Have you perhaps noticed this?

Poofters? Thats a new one.