Triple Six

Just a couple of points.

1) The original post was on the religious influence on 9/11 and I didn't claim it was the sole influence but an important factor that made it possible; one that would prevent a
Western terrorist group (do you want a longer list?, these were examples) from doing similar.

2) Would the Tamil Tigers be blowing themselves up if they were atheists who knew that when they cashed in their chips that was it?

NOGO

Japanese Kamikaze committed suicide for their nation. Palestinian suicide bombers and Japanese Kamikaze are and were driven by despair.
The difference with 9/11 is that the people who carried it out could not possibly have believed that they would advance their cause to any degree and certainly did not do it out of despair.

It took a lot of brainwashing. The religious kind.

Consider this...
It was carefully planned by OBL but the people who carried out the plan did not know anything until the very day it happened. They were ready to die but did not know how or why.

GaryP

And they believed that their emperor was divine.

Apparently, the Allies did not prosecute him because they were fearful of the Japanese reaction when they realized that their god could be put on trial like any war criminal.

echidna

Needless to say, any discussion on the factors motivating an activist to suicide is somewhat speculative given the remarkable absence of contributing suicidal activists, however …

NOGO, I would venture to say that motivation to political suicide extends well beyond just despair. Anger, revenge, love, peer pressure, social expectations and pure utilitarianism also seem to be likely candidates. Simplifying the issue into just a theological argument is futile & the factors will vary dramatically depending on the individual political circumstances, and then also for each individual’s values and experiences.

If you’ll ignore the circularity, broadbrushing with absolutist statements on such a complex issue is pointless.

Similar to the prison threads, one must consider that atheists feature highly amongst middle to upper class educated people, primarily in wealthy OECD countries. As such, this class of people is rarely subjected to the political pressures involving violent political movements which generally occur in developing nations with smaller educated populations. Little surprise then that participants are mainly theistic, but hardly a proof of atheism’s superiority. More theists die of malnutrition than atheists, does this mean atheism is better ?

Also remember that terrorists understandably never actually describe themselves as terrorists. Claiming that the Al Qaeda operatives were unaware of their actions, would be no different to sending a soldier on a classified mission.

Proud, are there atheists in the military ? Do they require exemption from risky duties because they’re more afraid of dying ? I think you’ll find atheists no less or more altruistic or courageous when it comes to being willing to die for a cause than theists, whatever that cause may be, rational or irrational.

Are terrorist causes rational or irrational ? Well you’d need to examine each in detail, and even then you’d be unlikely to come to a clear answer.

You seem to be asserting that people need to be religiously motivated to risk self preservation. Clearly not an absolute requirement.

Triple Six

The military has nothing to do with this argument. It is obvious that joining the forces puts that person in a potentially risky position. No doubt those that join feel that the rewards outweigh the risks. If adverts for the military guaranteed certain death to those joining then I reckon they may have serious recruiting problems.

There's a huge difference between taking a risk and certain death, which is what the 9/11 hijackers faced. A risky assignment, no matter how small the odds of survival, offers some hope to the person taking it that they will get through and no doubt collect some kind of reward on this earth and not in some fantasy world.

echidna

Are you saying that an atheist with no concept of afterlife is incapable of suicide for a political or social cause ?

How do you explain the millions of Marxist, Communist calls for self-sacrifice and death over the past century ? Certainly no appeal to an Afterlife, that’s for sure !!!

You’re saying that no communist atheist has ever knowingly gone to their death ?

You misread human nature. Everyone fears death, no one want to die. Read a few death threads & you’ll see that atheists possess every bit of bravado that theists do when it comes to The Big Change In Lifestyle. But Afterlife or not, avoidance of death is not the sole aim of anyone, and on occasion strength of convictions can motivate anyone to suicide for a cause.

Ask atheist parents whether they’d die for their families for starters.

NOGO

Can you possibly ignore the fact that physical self sacrifice is at the centre of Christian and Muslim thought. Jesus sacrificed himself for others. He who wants to save his life will lose it and he who lost it will gain it.

The whole thing speaks to the martyr in you.
I bet that there still is today many people who secretly wish to be martyrs for their faith.

Believers are predisposed, endoctrinated on the road to martyrdom. All that is required is a perceived injustice on a large enough scale.

If you were a samurai you were thought that family honor was everything and that you must be ready to die for it.

I agree that it is not so simple but then you cannot get away from the fact that Christianity and Islam generated martyrs and the martyr spirit.

echidna

Almost. But I disagree that religion “generated martyrs and the martyr spirit”. I would suggest that altruism is a universal human characteristic, completely independent of worldview. We are all faced daily with the dilemma of prioritising between ourselves and others.

As such I would rephrase that “Christianity and Islam *appeal* to the human spirit of self sacrifice”. And Fortunately not every Arab or Christian takes self sacrifice to the extent of strapping on the explosives. But religion is far from being the only human institution which motivates and manipulates people to act in self-sacrifice.

It’s perfectly possible to use the same appeal from a secular perspective as well, and perfectly reasonable and often beneficial I might add. Let’s not sell ourselves short that religion has a mortgage on altruism & self sacrifice.

Heh. I think it’s being a bit selective to attribute “bad” altruism to religion but “good” altruism to atheism.

Triple Six

Not incapable but considerably less likely. There are all sorts of reasons for suicidal action as well as the possibility of depression or other mental problems in the person concerned. However take away that and similar pressures that may cause a suicidal action such as direct and and real threat, and there still remains the extra motivation of provided by islamic brainwashing.

The communist martyrs you talk about were a) not necessarily atheist themselves b) engaged in a direct war and c) usually desperately poor with literally nothing to lose.

The 9/11 crew were educated, and though they may have thought otherwise, did not have to face direct physical attacks by their enemy, after all they lived among them during training.

If you really think that religion had no part in 9/11 then so be it, we'll have to disagree.

echidna

Dear oh dear.