Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dr Rick · 04-13-2003, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dk
Imagine this from a microbes perspective. Anal sex bypasses the first and second lines of defense to provide microbes a superhighway with direct access to the most succulent body tissues, in a densely populated community that frequently shares a diseased immune system. Where else can microbes afford an university education to improve themselves in an environment un-oppressed by nasty immune responses. MDR microbes are the true beneficiaries of the creative juices that flow within the gay community, and gay people that practice promiscuous anal sex their gracious hosts.

More illnesses, including HIV disease, are transmitted by vaginal intercourse than anal intercourse. Promiscuity increases the risk of diseases for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.

Quote:

For the last 20 years the NEA, AFT, Planned Parenthood, a mob of gay associations etc... have been broadly publicized condoms as a reliable means to "safe sex". Yet I become confused when I read about the high incidence rates of the diseases they are supposed to prevent. Since condom advocates claim to have reliable results from controlled laboratory studies, I must conclude the controlled studies don't accurately duplicate the conditions that exist in the real world. What do you think?

Condoms have been shown through controlled clinical trials and epidemiolgic studies to decrease the risk of disease transmission; the overwhelming evidence extends far beyond the lab.

The risk reduction is relative, however, not absolute, and condoms are of no benefit if they aren't used.

Rick

dk · 04-13-2003, 08:23 AM

Jinto:
A child's need for parents is not at odds with the existance of gay marriage. In cases where marriage exists without children, it is not even an issue. In cases where gays choose to adopt, I believe that it is invariably better than the alternative, which is being left in the states convoluted foster care system. So, gay marriage is not at odds with a child's need for parents.
dk: �I believe� sounds like statement made by a fanatical fundamentalist, that�s a weak argument at best. Unless gays plan to increase their membership by at least 10 fold, they can�t possibly provide a remedy for the foster care system. You can�t put 10lbs a shit in 5lb bag. Its the nuclear family that needs to be revitalized

Jinto:
A child's need for a clear moral compass is also not at odds with gays. As you have been adamantly clear, there is a difference between your proclaimed gay culture and the actual values of gay people. In particular: a gay person who actually values marriage probably does not hold the "promiscuous and pornographic" values that you ascribe to gay culture. And again, this is not even an issue in gay marriages absent children. So, gay marriage is not at odds with a child's need for a clear moral compass.
dk: Ok, I�ll re-offer my challenge that has gone unanswered, please provide 1 national gay association or gay publication that publicly promotes chaste teenagers . That should be simple.

Quote:

dk: My liberty ends where your freedom begins. You're pro semantic-gymnastics, What you call the Defense Department, I call the War Department. Gays have no right to people's children, they have an obligation like everyone else.
Jinto:
And what is it with your consistent implication that gay people are predators after people's children?

Because gay associations and alliances have their boot prints all over public education and universities using child rights to promote themselves with promiscuity and pornographic values. Kids are interested, but it is rotten! Sex sells, but that�s no excuse to sell sex to kids.

Quote:

dk: Gay culture is burdened with promiscuous and pornograpphic values, so gays need to clean up their act before making claims upon children.
Jinto: And the exact probability of a person who values promiscuity and pornography actually being allowed to adopt a child, gay marriage issues aside, is...? (hint: the value is LARGER for heterosexuals than it is for homosexuals, due to the probable prejudices of the evaluator).

dk: The trend for the last 40 years indicates, as the nuclear family breaks down children become increasingly dysfunctional and vulnerable in an increasingly dangerous world. In 1960 the �out of wedlock birth rate� and the divorce rate were under 5%. Its just idiotic to believe the dysfunctional nuclear family isn�t a factor in dysfunctional children. If the nuclear family where healthy gays and lesbians wouldn�t be a problem. For that matter teen pregnancy, drugs, violence and abuse wouldn�t be a problem either. Our economy, legal system, and public schools have become hostile to the nuclear family, and gay culture is even more hostile. If gays want to be part of the solution they need to clean up gay culture.

dk · 04-13-2003, 09:10 AM

Quote:

dk:: Imagine this from a microbes perspective. Anal sex bypasses the first and second lines of defense to provide microbes a superhighway with direct access to the most succulent body tissues, in a densely populated community that frequently shares a diseased immune system. Where else can microbes afford an university education to improve themselves in an environment un-oppressed by nasty immune responses. MDR microbes are the true beneficiaries of the creative juices that flow within the gay community, and gay people that practice promiscuous anal sex their gracious hosts.
Rick:
More illnesses, including HIV disease, are transmitted by vaginal intercourse than anal intercourse. Promiscuity increases the risk of diseases for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.

Rick I�ve made my point statistically, analogically, historically and sarcastically. Please forgive my sarcasm, its the tragic circumstances that drive me to sarcasm . It�s simply impossible to rationalize or equivocate the incidence of social diseases contained in gay communities with heterosexual infidelities, especially because there�s no basis for comparison. Whatever the values, morals and laws that govern mano on mano sexual relationships in 2003AC, they fundamentally differ from the heterosexual world, and they are unique to a mono on mono culture. All the evidence that might support any other conclusion has been buried by the privacy rights gays sought to protect themselves from public scandals and humiliation. It�s not my fault Rick, don�t shoot the messenger. Its a rationalization to qualify one lie with another with a secret, therefore unacceptable. The conduct of gay people since HAART treatments have come online in the US has been a scandal of neglect, apathy and pretense. The clear lesson reported by the CDC, NIH and Surveillance bureaucracies indicate that hiv/aids runs like a vein though US communities laden with promiscuous gay/bisexual/IDU lifestyles. Preventative and rehab messages, methods and programs are great, but they don�t address the fundamental problem. The problem is the dysfunctional nuclear family. Gays and lesbians whatever their wants and desires can�t fix the problem, they can only aggravate it.

Quote:

dk: For the last 20 years the NEA, AFT, Planned Parenthood, a mob of gay associations etc... have been broadly publicized condoms as a reliable means to "safe sex". Yet I become confused when I read about the high incidence rates of the diseases they are supposed to prevent. Since condom advocates claim to have reliable results from controlled laboratory studies, I must conclude the controlled studies don't accurately duplicate the conditions that exist in the real world. What do you think?
Rick: Condoms have been shown through controlled clinical trials and epidemiolgic studies to decrease the risk of disease transmission; the overwhelming evidence extends far beyond the lab.
The risk reduction is relative, however, not absolute, and condoms are of no benefit if they aren't used.

That�s great Rick, but a control study takes place in a laboratory not the real world. Its one thing to kill cancer cells cultured in a Petri dish or a lab rat, and quit another to cure cancer in a diverse society of 300million people. We can�t continue the same failed strategy decade after decade without results, that would be insane.

Nowhere357 · 04-13-2003, 09:15 AM

I was wondering, if someone substitutes quantity for quality while commiting every logical fallacy in the book, is it fair to say that person has no views worth considering?

Dr Rick · 04-13-2003, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dk
All the evidence that might support any other conclusion has been buried by the privacy rights gays sought to protect themselves from public scandals and humiliation...Its a rationalization to qualify one lie with another with a secret, therefore unacceptable.

I don't understand what you are saying here.

It appears that you are implying that when the facts refute your position, than there must be some secret conspiracy hiding the truth.

If all the evidence that might support any other conclusion has been buried, how do you know about it?

Quote:

The clear lesson reported by the CDC, NIH and Surveillance bureaucracies indicate that hiv/aids runs like a vein though US communities laden with promiscuous gay/bisexual/IDU lifestyles.

The overwhelming majority of HIV cases were and still are transmitted by heterosexual, vaginal sex.

Quote:

Preventative and rehab messages, methods and programs are great, but they don�t address the fundamental problem. The problem is the dysfunctional nuclear family.

What does anal sex have to do with dysfunctional nuclear families?

Quote:

That�s great Rick, but a control study takes place in a laboratory not the real world.

Controled trials are performed on people, not in labs. A group of people are provided with the treatment under study and their outcomes are compared with an untreated "control" group.

Quote:

Its one thing to kill cancer cells cultured in a Petri dish or a lab rat, and quit another to cure cancer in a diverse society of 300million people.

That's why controlled studies are done.

Quote:

We can�t continue the same failed strategy decade after decade without results, that would be insane.

So if the solution to stopping disease transmission among gays is to outlaw anal intercourse, shouldn't we outlaw vaginal intercouse to stop disease transmission among straights?

Daggah · 04-13-2003, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dk
Yes, I find condoms a fascinating study. For the last 20 years the NEA, AFT, Planned Parenthood, a mob of gay associations etc... have been broadly publicized condoms as a reliable means to "safe sex". Yet I become confused when I read about the high incidence rates of the diseases they are supposed to prevent. Since condom advocates claim to have reliable results from controlled laboratory studies, I must conclude the controlled studies don't accurately duplicate the conditions that exist in the real world. What do you think?

Well gee, the incidence rates of these various diseases aren't quite so high in countries that do a good job of teaching sex ed. You know, like France, and the Netherlands, where abstinence education is rightfully laughed at?

You do realize that in France, where teens are actually taught how to use condoms, the gonorrhea rate among teens is 70 times lower (!!!) than it is here in America?

Why is that, dk?

Jinto · 04-13-2003, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dk
�I believe� sounds like statement made by a fanatical fundamentalist, that�s a weak argument at best. Unless gays plan to increase their membership by at least 10 fold, they can�t possibly provide a remedy for the foster care system. You can�t put 10lbs a shit in 5lb bag. Its the nuclear family that needs to be revitalized

Here we have it, dk's admission that gays need to increase their membership by tenfold. By deduction, we can say that any attempt to turn kids into gay people is a good one. And keep in mind that this is YOUR statment, not mine.

(By the way, notice how he completely fails to adress the original argument. Also notice the use of ad hominem at the beginning.)

Quote:

Ok, I�ll re-offer my challenge that has gone unanswered, please provide 1 national gay association or gay publication that publicly promotes chaste teenagers . That should be simple.

Please provide one national gay association or gay publication that publicly states a position one way or the other.

Quote:

Because gay associations and alliances have their boot prints all over public education and universities using child rights to promote themselves with promiscuity and pornographic values. Kids are interested, but it is rotten! Sex sells, but that�s no excuse to sell sex to kids

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa! Note to readers: if it smells like bullshit, it probably is.

Quote:

The trend for the last 40 years indicates, as the nuclear family breaks down children become increasingly dysfunctional and vulnerable in an increasingly dangerous world. In 1960 the �out of wedlock birth rate� and the divorce rate were under 5%. Its just idiotic to believe the dysfunctional nuclear family isn�t a factor in dysfunctional children. If the nuclear family where healthy gays and lesbians wouldn�t be a problem. For that matter teen pregnancy, drugs, violence and abuse wouldn�t be a problem either. Our economy, legal system, and public schools have become hostile to the nuclear family, and gay culture is even more hostile. If gays want to be part of the solution they need to clean up gay culture.

You give away too much of your hand here. Look at your words: If the nuclear family were healthy gays and lesbians wouldn't be a problem. In other words, your system is falling apart, and you're looking for a scapegoat. You blame the gays, even though they have nothing to do with it: the nuclear family has been falling apart ever since it became possible for women to hold jobs. Why don't you blame the collapse of traditional gender roles: at least then your accusations would be ACCURATE, if no less bigoted.

dk · 04-13-2003, 10:46 PM

Quote:

dk: All the evidence that might support any other conclusion has been buried by the privacy rights gays sought to protect themselves from public scandals and humiliation...Its a rationalization to qualify one lie with another with a secret, therefore unacceptable.
It appears that you are implying that when the facts refute your position, than there must be some secret conspiracy hiding the truth.
If all the evidence that might support any other conclusion has been buried, how do you know about it?
Rick: I don't understand what you are saying here.

dk: I�m saying the information collected on gays looks bleak, but perhaps the uncollected information might shed some light.

Quote:

dk: The clear lesson reported by the CDC, NIH and Surveillance bureaucracies indicate that hiv/aids runs like a vein though US communities laden with promiscuous gay/bisexual/IDU lifestyles.
Michael: The overwhelming majority of HIV cases were and still are transmitted by heterosexual, vaginal sex.

dk: The pathogenesis of virtually every contagious disease differ between 1st world and 3rd world nations.
Here�s the story on the US

In 1995 the NIH projections
HIV/AIDS research should be responsive to changes in the epidemic. With respect to new infections in the United States,

IDU 50%
MSM for approximately 25%
heterosexual transmission 20-25%.

With respect to demographic factors, in the United States, Latinos and African-Americans are especially hard-hit by HIV, representing 18 percent and 38 percent of all AIDS cases, respectively; the proportion of cases among women has increased to 18 percent (from 8 percent in 1987); and approximately 50 percent of new HIV infections occur in individuals under the age of 25. Worldwide, 90 percent of new infections occur in developing countries. � ------ Page 12, para 2 ;: Principle 2: HIV/AIDs must respond to NIH AIDS Research Program Evaluation : BEHAVIORAL, SOCIAL SCIENCE, AND PREVENTION RESEARCH : AREA REVIEW PANEL : http://www.nih.gov/od/oar/public/pubs/behavior.pdf
In 2001 the HIV AIDs Surveillance Report

Of the 282,250 adult and adolescent (>13 years of age)
MSM 57%
MSM/IDUs 8%
IDUs 24%
heterosexual contact 9%

Of the 76,696 adult and adolescent women with AIDS, 59% were exposed through heterosexual contact, and 38% were exposed through injection drug use (Table 30). http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats/hasr1302/commentary.htm
From HIV AIDS Surveillance Report (HASR) 2001

Code:

Exposure Category    Male  Female   Total
_________________  _______  ______  _______
MSM                368,971       -  368,971
IDU                145,750  55,576  201,326
MSM & IDU           51,293       -   51,293
Percent 
Heterosexual 
contact             32,735  57,396   90,131
Blood Products       5,057   3,914    8,971
Hemophilia           5,000     292    5,292
Risk not reported   57,220  23,870   81,091

What I hope to demonstrate is that hiv/aids has not ravaged the heterosexual US as the NIH and CDC projected, trended and continue to publicize. Clearly they have underestimated the incidence of exposure for MSM and MSM&IDU communities. Some people might say its no big deal, but the projections direct where the resources are allocated. If the NIH allocated resources to gay communities of only 25% then they were short changed 100%. I�m a little disappointed the NIH and CDC haven�t reported their error, and corrected their projections, or if they did make the correction failed to fess up.

Quote:

dk: Preventative and rehab messages, methods and programs are great, but they don�t address the fundamental problem. The problem is the dysfunctional nuclear family.
Rick: What does anal sex have to do with dysfunctional nuclear families?

dk: Dysfunction within the fundamental unit (nuclear family) cascades across all sociological elements, especially elements on the fringe of society like gays communities. The root cause gays/lesbians suffer stems from the dysfunction in the nuclear family. The same is true for the crisis in schools, out of wedlock teen births, high drop out rates, overburdened foster care system, sexual abuse, domestic violence, racism, drug abuse in teens, women improvised by divorce, and teen violence in communities absence a positive male role model.

Quote:

dk: That�s great Rick, but a control study takes place in a laboratory not the real world.
Controled trials are performed on people, not in labs. A group of people are provided with the treatment under study and their outcomes are compared with an untreated "control" group.
Its one thing to kill cancer cells cultured in a Petri dish or a lab rat, and quit another to cure cancer in a diverse society of 300million people.
Rick: That's why controlled studies are done.

dk: Control studies are done for prove of concept.

dk: We can�t continue the same failed strategy decade after decade without results, that would be insane.
Rick: So if the solution to stopping disease transmission among gays is to outlaw anal intercourse, shouldn't we outlaw vaginal intercourse to stop disease transmission among straights?
dk: Proof of concept provides a solution for a problem statement. If the problem statement is flawed then the proof of concept becomes a non sequitur. The evidence (poor results) after 30 years of real world trials indicate the problem statement for which condoms were fashioned was flawed, so proof of concept becomes meaningless.

dk · 04-13-2003, 11:49 PM

Quote:

dk: �I believe� sounds like statement made by a fanatical fundamentalist, that�s a weak argument at best. Unless gays plan to increase their membership by at least 10 fold, they can�t possibly provide a remedy for the foster care system. You can�t put 10lbs a shit in 5lb bag. Its the nuclear family that needs to be revitalized
Jinto: Here we have it, dk's admission that gays need to increase their membership by tenfold. By deduction, we can say that any attempt to turn kids into gay people is a good one. And keep in mind that this is YOUR statment, not mine.
(By the way, notice how he completely fails to adress the original argument. Also notice the use of ad hominem at the beginning.)

dk: It inconceivable that 2-4% of our population, gays/lesbians, with gay marriage can solve the dysfunction of the nuclear family. You�re overly sensitive to the accusation that gays reproduce by having anal intercourse with youngsters. I must however remind you that young boys get raped all the time, by bigger boys and older men. There is a great deal of teenage prostitution evident in poor inner city neighborhoods. That�s a subject that does make many people uncomfortable for good reason, including the Catholic Church, public schools, and the YMCA.

Quote:

dk: Ok, I�ll re-offer my challenge that has gone unanswered, please provide 1 national gay association or gay publication that publicly promotes chaste teenagers . That should be simple.
jinto: Please provide one national gay association or gay publication that publicly states a position one way or the other.

dk: If you insist, �We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of your shallow dreams and vulgar lies. We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your seminaries, in your youth groups, in your movie theater bathrooms, in your houses of Congress, wherever men are with men together. Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding. They shall be recast in our image. They will come to crave us and adore us� ----- Michael Swift, in The Gay Community News.

Since you don�t seem able to respond to my challenge, I�ll take your mute response as a concession.

Quote:

dk: Because gay associations and alliances have their boot prints all over public education and universities using child rights to promote themselves with promiscuity and pornographic values. Kids are interested, but it is rotten! Sex sells, but that�s no excuse to sell sex to kids.
Jinto: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa! Note to readers: if it smells like bullshit, it probably is.

dk: Its not that funny Jinto.

Quote:

dk:: The trend for the last 40 years indicates, as the nuclear family breaks down children become increasingly dysfunctional and vulnerable in an increasingly dangerous world. In 1960 the �out of wedlock birth rate� and the divorce rate were under 5%. Its just idiotic to believe the dysfunctional nuclear family isn�t a factor in dysfunctional children. If the nuclear family where healthy gays and lesbians wouldn�t be a problem. For that matter teen pregnancy, drugs, violence and abuse wouldn�t be a problem either. Our economy, legal system, and public schools have become hostile to the nuclear family, and gay culture is even more hostile. If gays want to be part of the solution they need to clean up gay culture.
Jinto: You give away too much of your hand here. Look at your words: If the nuclear family were healthy gays and lesbians wouldn't be a problem. In other words, your system is falling apart, and you're looking for a scapegoat. You blame the gays, even though they have nothing to do with it: the nuclear family has been falling apart ever since it became possible for women to hold jobs. Why don't you blame the collapse of traditional gender roles: at least then your accusations would be ACCURATE, if no less bigoted.

dk: I�m sorry to hear you deny that gays suffer the highest incidence of hiv/aids from MSM, and new MDR microbes spread by promiscuous MSM behavior. MSM is a pathology, a problem that disproportionately kills 100s thousands of gays. Maybe you think that's funny, too!!!!

dk · 04-14-2003, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Daggah: Well gee, the incidence rates of these various diseases aren't quite so high in countries that do a good job of teaching sex ed. You know, like France, and the Netherlands, where abstinence education is rightfully laughed at?
You do realize that in France, where teens are actually taught how to use condoms, the gonorrhea rate among teens is 70 times lower (!!!) than it is here in America?
Why is that, dk?

Would you say, �Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Cuba offer better sex education than France and the Netherlands�, because they have a lower incidence of hiv/aids. I doubt it. Why? Because the rate of incidence in a community varies with the behavior that exposes a person to the virus and Sex-education doesn�t determine sexual behavior, but is one factor amongst many that determine sexual behavor.

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04-13-2003, 09:15 AM	#184
Nowhere357 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Grand Junction CO Posts: 2,231	I was wondering, if someone substitutes quantity for quality while commiting every logical fallacy in the book, is it fair to say that person has no views worth considering?

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